grufty jim
|
Re: Half of Europe?
Jun 06, 2003, 17:03
|
*All* aletrnative energy schemes are more expensive than fossil fuels.
This is what people just can't get their heads around... Fossil Fuels Are Unique. The ERoEI of oil, for instance can range into the 100s!!! (though it's usually pegged at around 30-50 depending upon the specific locale).
This means that no green fuel will ever compare with fossil fuels *economically*, UNTIL the day that fossil fuel depletion starts to factor on the markets (6 - 12 years for that is my estimate). But by that point it'll be too damn late to build a green energy infrastructure.
Either we do it now (and accept that we have to pay more for it than for fossil fuels), or else we ignore the issue; burn the last of our oil, gas and coal in a short-sighted display of great stupidity; and return, after many wars and famines, to a pre-industrial society.
(all in my opinion)
|
grufty jim
|
Re: Half of Europe?
Jun 06, 2003, 17:05
|
>
> I have the report done for the Irish wind power
> projects at home.
>
i've read it. Can't recall the details; but they spoke of replacing 50% of Northern Europe's "generated electricity" if my memory is even half-right.
This fails to account for internal combustion engines, the use of fossil fuels in the chemical industry, and the consumer use of natural gas for heating and cooking.
|
FourWinds
|
Re: Half of Europe?
Jun 06, 2003, 17:25
|
|
Well, because we were talking electricity generation I hardly thought someone would think I meant that I meant it would replace half of ALL of the power used. I did just mean the current generated electricity levels, not cars etc.
|
grufty jim
|
Re: Half of Europe?
Jun 06, 2003, 17:29
|
I understand that.
But the unfortunate thing is that any serious alternative energy policy MUST take cars, consumer use of natural gas, and fossil-fuel based fertilisers into account. Failing to do so (as is every government in the world with the possible exception of Sweden and Norway) is just a cop-out. By defining these items as "outside national energy policy", it's just a convenient way of avoiding a difficult (but absolutely VITAL) question.
|
grufty jim
|
|
|
This is why my "village/town localised wind-farm" scheme is but Phase 1 of a 4-Phase European energy policy.
|
grufty jim
|
Re: Half of Europe?
Jun 06, 2003, 17:39
|
Sorry, i gotta elaborate (though i have NO time... gotta dash across London to see 'my man').
Let's take the energy consumed in the transportation of food. The latest Swedish study concluded that 60% of all energy "consumed" by an average Swedish citizen is "consumed" by the internal combustion engines, and fossil-fuel fertlisers than go to put his/her food on the table. This *excludes* energy used by the person's personal automobile (which is broken out as a separate item).
Replacing the electricity used by our average Swede to light his/her home and watch the TV just ain't going to even begin addressing our energy problems. And the more we concentrate on that, the more we take our eye of the real ball.
HOWEVER, it's my contention that a huge slice of that "food-systems" energy can indeed be replaced using - say - windpower. This is not taken into account by any study i've ever read (which all seem to be obsessed with replacing one form of electricity generation with another, rather than looking at the energy issue as a whole). And i frankly think that's a pretty valid criticism of those studies.
|
grufty jim
|
PS: Sweden
Jun 06, 2003, 17:41
|
|
That 60% number is off the top of my head; but it's approximately correct. I have the actual Swedish study somewhere; but not currently to hand. Will correct the stat if it turns out to be significantly different when i unearth the study.
|
FourWinds
|
Re: Half of Europe?
Jun 06, 2003, 18:09
|
You're right. It puts a very different light on things.
Time to stop eating! Well, non-local stuff anyway.
My spuds and caulis are doing well, as are my beans.
Why didn't I plant a beef tree?
|
necropolist
|
Re: Where?
Jun 06, 2003, 18:30
|
i got it off Urban75, but it came from somewhere else and didnt say exactly where.
So all I know is whats put there, it's near Maesteg, and is a barrow apparently, but that's me lot.
As others have said, make a propoer study of the place & then build the buggers! I think it's a pretty reasonable way of honouring ancestors really green energy, certainly no worse than abunch of hippies wandring round going, oooohh. :)
|
grufty jim
|
Follow up
Jun 06, 2003, 21:39
|
I cited a Swedish study stating that the global food production and distribution system accounted for 60% of the average person's energy consumption.
After unearthing the actual work, it turns out the figures were for an "average family or household" rather than "average person". And the actual percentage is a shade under 57%.
There are two critical things to understand about this:
1. just how much energy can be saved through sourcing food locally.
2. just how damaging this would be to global trade and international markets. 'Cos all that energy being wasted still has to be bought and sold by people.
Anyways, the nice chap who carried out this research has put together a short summary of his work in English. I can't read Swedish, so have never read the original research, but the summary is fascinating (as it's one of the very very few in-depth studies carried out into this issue).
The relevant page of the summary can be found at:
http://www.holon.se/folke/worries/oildepl/energy.shtml
|
