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Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
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The Eternal
924 posts

Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jun 12, 2015, 20:29
Hi All,

Has anyone read 'First Light: the Origins of Newgrange'?
I'm interested on whether it's got anything else to add other than guesswork.

Ta,

TE.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jun 26, 2015, 21:00
The Eternal wrote:
Hi All,

Has anyone read 'First Light: the Origins of Newgrange'?
I'm interested on whether it's got anything else to add other than guesswork.

Ta,

TE.


There's not a huge amount of books about the the Irish passage graves ,so a new one is welcome . I enjoyed it , it's main concern is the evolution of the monuments and as such a typology is intoduced . Type 1 is the earlier monuments with small with the chambers usually surrounded by a circle of boulders with little space between them discouraging access . They have a rudimentary passage no covering cairn , art , associated astronomy and were too smll to allow for access for rituals and if there were any it would have to have been outside the monument .e.g. much of the Carrowmore complex . Type 2 allowed access and repeated entry into the chamber , they have art , astro associations , are much bigger than earlier , corbelled roofs , in relatively more isolated situations , more recesses and are also the most common of the monument type (75%) e.g. Seefin ,Knockmany , Belmore etc . Type 3 were even bigger , had straightened facades, platforms ,greater association with quartz ,stone settings , kerbstone art ,associated linear monumnets and prestige artefacts e.g. Knowth ,Knockroe , Newgrange etc.
The weakest part of the book for me is suggestion of a connection between the types and the two modes of religiosity and ritual proposed by Harvey Whitehouse i.e. Imagistic and Doctrinal with type 1 being associated with the former and type 2 and 3 with the latter the binary distinction is too neat and there is no mention that Whithouse accepts that both can be be found to co-exist in the same cosmology/culture.
As the author does know the subject , it is informed guesswork and he is never dogmatic when there is doubt .
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jun 27, 2015, 09:10
tiompan wrote:
The Eternal wrote:
Hi All,

Has anyone read 'First Light: the Origins of Newgrange'?
I'm interested on whether it's got anything else to add other than guesswork.

Ta,

TE.


There's not a huge amount of books about the the Irish passage graves ,so a new one is welcome . I enjoyed it , it's main concern is the evolution of the monuments and as such a typology is intoduced . Type 1 is the earlier monuments with small with the chambers usually surrounded by a circle of boulders with little space between them discouraging access . They have a rudimentary passage no covering cairn , art , associated astronomy and were too smll to allow for access for rituals and if there were any it would have to have been outside the monument .e.g. much of the Carrowmore complex . Type 2 allowed access and repeated entry into the chamber , they have art , astro associations , are much bigger than earlier , corbelled roofs , in relatively more isolated situations , more recesses and are also the most common of the monument type (75%) e.g. Seefin ,Knockmany , Belmore etc . Type 3 were even bigger , had straightened facades, platforms ,greater association with quartz ,stone settings , kerbstone art ,associated linear monumnets and prestige artefacts e.g. Knowth ,Knockroe , Newgrange etc.
The weakest part of the book for me is suggestion of a connection between the types and the two modes of religiosity and ritual proposed by Harvey Whitehouse i.e. Imagistic and Doctrinal with type 1 being associated with the former and type 2 and 3 with the latter the binary distinction is too neat and there is no mention that Whithouse accepts that both can be be found to co-exist in the same cosmology/culture.
As the author does know the subject , it is informed guesswork and he is never dogmatic when there is doubt .


Hello Tiompan, good to see both yourself and The Eternal on TMA ... I've missed your input. Your analysis of the book was easy to follow and am very tempted to buy it for myself, it seems to be $26 online which I guess is around £20
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/dbbc/first-light.html

I was wondering where wedge tombs fit into it, if at all - would they fall into Type 1 - or are they only found in the south west of Ireland.
Also, I have Neil Thomas's book "Irish Symbols of 3500" which was written in 1988. In your view, do his interpretations of the symbols still stand as a relevant work?
carol27
747 posts

Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jun 27, 2015, 17:24
Oh you people put me to shame, you're so bloody knowledgeable. Thankyou for educating me when I arrogantly thought, at my age, I had nothing left to learn! I now realise the older I get the more there is to learn. Bring it on. I have been told that you Tiompan know more about cup marks than most & I would like to know, in my typically lazy way, what you think they are. I know I should probably read back, but, in a nut shell? And, anyway I'd just like to hear people's personal opinions.
Hello the, shall we discuss the G spot? Hope you're well.
carol27
747 posts

Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jun 27, 2015, 17:25
I meant to say tjj 're G spot!
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jun 27, 2015, 17:30
tjj wrote:
tiompan wrote:
The Eternal wrote:
Hi All,

Has anyone read 'First Light: the Origins of Newgrange'?
I'm interested on whether it's got anything else to add other than guesswork.

Ta,

TE.


There's not a huge amount of books about the the Irish passage graves ,so a new one is welcome . I enjoyed it , it's main concern is the evolution of the monuments and as such a typology is intoduced . Type 1 is the earlier monuments with small with the chambers usually surrounded by a circle of boulders with little space between them discouraging access . They have a rudimentary passage no covering cairn , art , associated astronomy and were too smll to allow for access for rituals and if there were any it would have to have been outside the monument .e.g. much of the Carrowmore complex . Type 2 allowed access and repeated entry into the chamber , they have art , astro associations , are much bigger than earlier , corbelled roofs , in relatively more isolated situations , more recesses and are also the most common of the monument type (75%) e.g. Seefin ,Knockmany , Belmore etc . Type 3 were even bigger , had straightened facades, platforms ,greater association with quartz ,stone settings , kerbstone art ,associated linear monumnets and prestige artefacts e.g. Knowth ,Knockroe , Newgrange etc.
The weakest part of the book for me is suggestion of a connection between the types and the two modes of religiosity and ritual proposed by Harvey Whitehouse i.e. Imagistic and Doctrinal with type 1 being associated with the former and type 2 and 3 with the latter the binary distinction is too neat and there is no mention that Whithouse accepts that both can be be found to co-exist in the same cosmology/culture.
As the author does know the subject , it is informed guesswork and he is never dogmatic when there is doubt .


Hello Tiompan, good to see both yourself and The Eternal on TMA ... I've missed your input. Your analysis of the book was easy to follow and am very tempted to buy it for myself, it seems to be $26 online which I guess is around £20
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/dbbc/first-light.html

I was wondering where wedge tombs fit into it, if at all - would they fall into Type 1 - or are they only found in the south west of Ireland.
Also, I have Neil Thomas's book "Irish Symbols of 3500" which was written in 1988. In your view, do his interpretations of the symbols still stand as a relevant work?


Hello tjj , glad there wasn't too many typos etc .

If you are happy to use Amazon , I think it’s probably a few quid cheaper .

Dates : Passage Tombs,type 1date from 3750-3500 BC ,even the later type 3 are much earlier than the earliest Wedge tombs .
Wedge Tombs , as of 2008 there are only 6 tombs that have provided RC dates and they are pretty tight , suggesting deposition around 2500-2300 BC , these dates are supported by the ceramics which fit into the same period .
Distribution :Wedge tombs tend to be found in the West
Passage graves :the majority are in the north and north east .
Architecture : Passage graves have a passage , even if only paired small stones as might be found at type 1 monuments , the chambers are very small and there is usually a surrounding kerb .
Wedge tombs : Wedge shaped i.e. roof slopes and walls narrow ,chambers are much bigger than type 1 passage graves .

I bought the Thomas book when it was first published , to be blunt , I think it’s rubbish .
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jun 27, 2015, 22:16
tiompan wrote:

Hello tjj , glad there wasn't too many typos etc .

If you are happy to use Amazon , I think it’s probably a few quid cheaper .

Dates : Passage Tombs,type 1date from 3750-3500 BC ,even the later type 3 are much earlier than the earliest Wedge tombs .
Wedge Tombs , as of 2008 there are only 6 tombs that have provided RC dates and they are pretty tight , suggesting deposition around 2500-2300 BC , these dates are supported by the ceramics which fit into the same period .
Distribution :Wedge tombs tend to be found in the West
Passage graves :the majority are in the north and north east .
Architecture : Passage graves have a passage , even if only paired small stones as might be found at type 1 monuments , the chambers are very small and there is usually a surrounding kerb .
Wedge tombs : Wedge shaped i.e. roof slopes and walls narrow ,chambers are much bigger than type 1 passage graves .

I bought the Thomas book when it was first published , to be blunt , I think it’s rubbish .


Thanks for your clear explanation of passage tombs Tiompan - I haven't actually visited any as yet but hope to go to that part of Ireland next year, sooner if at all possible (financially).

I must have picked up the N.L. Thomas book when I was in West Cork three years ago. I mentioned it as he was talking about Newgrange, Knowth, Dowth, Fourknocks, Loughcrew etc. As you will remember he has based his book on deciphering inscriptions suggesting that the people who made them did so to illustrate a sixteen month calendar. He also draws comparisons in his preface with Australian aboriginal paintings ... it all feels a bit 'last century' but then it was. The chapter on Legend and Myth is worth reading, the map at the front of book detailing where the monuments are is helpful. I really do need to visit the Boyne monuments.

Thanks for bearing with me on the wedge tomb question - I hadn't realised there was at least a millennium difference in the time line. (As in the difference between West Kennett Long Barrow and Avebury/Silbury).

All the best
tj
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Jun 28, 2015, 11:30
Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jun 27, 2015, 22:29
carol27 wrote:
Oh you people put me to shame, you're so bloody knowledgeable. Thankyou for educating me when I arrogantly thought, at my age, I had nothing left to learn! I now realise the older I get the more there is to learn. Bring it on. I have been told that you Tiompan know more about cup marks than most & I would like to know, in my typically lazy way, what you think they are. I know I should probably read back, but, in a nut shell? And, anyway I'd just like to hear people's personal opinions.
Hello the, shall we discuss the G spot? Hope you're well.


Hello Carol, have just seen this. Tiompan is patient, knowledgeable and always happy to pass his knowledge on. I've learnt a lot from him and from TMA in general. Mostly, however, I've learnt just how much I don't know - so we are both in the same boat :)
(edited 28/6/15)
The Eternal
924 posts

Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jul 04, 2015, 23:44
Hi tiompan, June and Carol,

Apologies for the delay in posting, but my dad has been ill, so I've been looking after him and losing almost half a stone in the process, which is the only positive note.

Thanks for your replies, which have been noted. Fascinating subject the Boyne valley chambered tombs, so it is.

Went to Newgrange once, back in about 1991/2. It was vey regulated then, although I suspect it is even more regulated now. Didn't take us too long to get in and it was a very educating experience, with the guide being very good. Bought a T-shirt of the stone with the rock art at the entrance. Still got it and it fits me a treat.

Obviously, the visiting experience would've been better if it hadn't been as rushed, but it was still a fantastic experience.

Thanks again for your opinions on the book and all the best to you all,

TE.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Newgrange. First light:the origins of Newgrange
Jul 04, 2015, 23:56
Hello TE ,
sorry to hear about your Dad , hope things are on the up , but not the weight .
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