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moss
moss
2897 posts

Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 06, 2013, 10:52
We trash the landscape for the benefits of billionaires

This is general news about the spread of wind turbines over our landscape, an energetic article by Simon Jenkins of what is really happening and who pockets the money for green energy. just pointing out the huge landscape areas that will be affected visually. As for the rich helping themselves to public money that is old news.....

"Turbines are to surround Cornwall and stretch along the north Devon coast. They will form a wall off the Dorset shore. They will line Offa's Dyke from Gwent to Shropshire, with a single giant on Clyro Hill looking down the Wye Valley like Rio's Christ the Redeemer. The once desolate Cambrian Mountains are on the way to being an estate of 840 turbines filling views in every direction.

The shires of Northampton, Nottingham and Cambridge are already gathering turbines. Heckington Fen in Lincolnshire may have ones higher than Lincoln cathedral. They are to appear in the Forest of Bowland in Lancashire, in the Brontë country of Yorkshire and on Spurn point off the Humber.

The wildest coastline left in England, in Northumberland, is being flanked by 70 turbines. In Scotland the Roxburghe array of 400 turbines has turned the once lovely Lammermuir Hills into a power station. Inverness and Caithness are to lose their open vistas, as are the Shetlands and the islands off Argyll. Scottish aristocrats have not seen such a turn in fortune since the Highland clearances."


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/06/wind-turbines-landscape-billionaires-energy-policy
Evergreen Dazed
1881 posts

Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 06, 2013, 13:02
Can't condone whats happening here, obviously, and from what i've read there are far more sensible options, but from a purely aesthetic point of view I like them. I realise I may be in a minority.
Mustard
1043 posts

Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 06, 2013, 16:02
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
Can't condone whats happening here, obviously, and from what i've read there are far more sensible options, but from a purely aesthetic point of view I like them. I realise I may be in a minority.

I'm fairly indifferent. I think they can look quite elegant. A lot of the landscapes that they allegedly ruin are very artificial anyway. There are certain places where I think they'd impose detrimentally on a fairly unspoiled view - Lewis, for example - but in many places, I find them quite aesthetically pleasing.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 07, 2013, 10:11
Mustard wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
Can't condone whats happening here, obviously, and from what i've read there are far more sensible options, but from a purely aesthetic point of view I like them. I realise I may be in a minority.

I'm fairly indifferent. I think they can look quite elegant. A lot of the landscapes that they allegedly ruin are very artificial anyway. There are certain places where I think they'd impose detrimentally on a fairly unspoiled view - Lewis, for example - but in many places, I find them quite aesthetically pleasing.


The Simon Jenkins article was a profoundly depressing read, I agree with him about the decisions being made by the current chancellor which seem to be about replenishing the coffers of the already wealthy at the expense of the landscape. However, I do support the principle of wind powered energy which equates to wind turbines. What are the other options? Nuclear power? With all its hazardous ramifications for future generations.

Mustard, with respect I don't agree with you about Lewis which has vast swathes of low lying bog land where no one but peat cutters go ... and its greatest resource is wind. Wind like I've never experienced before, which can blow for days and nights on end without let up. The down side is that birds may fly into them - perhaps eagles would soar above them.
Mustard
1043 posts

Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 07, 2013, 11:10
tjj wrote:
Mustard wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
Can't condone whats happening here, obviously, and from what i've read there are far more sensible options, but from a purely aesthetic point of view I like them. I realise I may be in a minority.

I'm fairly indifferent. I think they can look quite elegant. A lot of the landscapes that they allegedly ruin are very artificial anyway. There are certain places where I think they'd impose detrimentally on a fairly unspoiled view - Lewis, for example - but in many places, I find them quite aesthetically pleasing.


The Simon Jenkins article was a profoundly depressing read, I agree with him about the decisions being made by the current chancellor which seem to be about replenishing the coffers of the already wealthy at the expense of the landscape. However, I do support the principle of wind powered energy which equates to wind turbines. What are the other options? Nuclear power? With all its hazardous ramifications for future generations.

Mustard, with respect I don't agree with you about Lewis which has vast swathes of low lying bog land where no one but peat cutters go ... and its greatest resource is wind. Wind like I've never experienced before, which can blow for days and nights on end without let up. The down side is that birds may fly into them - perhaps eagles would soar above them.

Well there are lots of other options worth exploring from an alternatives point of view. Wind isn't the answer to our energy needs. Solar is looking a lot more promising, along with things like thorium and sustainable fusion that could yet produce results. I'm not an expert though, so I tend to avoid having a strong opinion because it's a complex subject about which I know too little.

I think, to be fair, it would depend where on Lewis they were built. We have few unspoiled areas left around these islands, so I don't think it's acceptable to ruin one of those just because it's windy.
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
986 posts

Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 07, 2013, 11:20
I have little issue with the aesthetics of wind turbines. I live within sight of one of the largest windfarms in the country. On Wednesday Night and on Thursday during the day, the wind was so strong they had to shut the turbines down. They have not turned since because there has been no wind. The turbines which have been installed are not even built in this country. Their transportation and the engineering infrastructure put into building access roads into the hills of Upper Clydesdale and Tweedsmuir has been anything but green. And this is all for a pile of turbines which mostly do not turn or generate anything.

http://toryaardvark.com/2011/11/17/14000-abandoned-wind-turbines-in-the-usa/

I am a huge fan of the post-war Hydro Schemes here in Scotland. I like the lines of pylons stretching across the hills carrying electricity to the remote parts of Scotland.
The Hydro Buildings sit quietly by the sides of lochs purring away and clicking into action when required. The Hollow Mountain at Ben Cruachan does what no wind turbine can do... it stores extra energy from the Grid and can drop everything to bump up the supply when needed. There is a fine Public Information Fillum here.

http://ssa.nls.uk/film/2214

This scheme was the work of some real forward thinkers who didn't waste a pound of sterling or a ounce of effort in creating real solutions to post-war energy problems.
I think the tidal rush around Islay/ Jura and Orkney could be a real future source of renewable energy and of course the tides will run at very predictable times. Storage will be required and new batteries could be constructed along the lines of Ben Cruachan. But political will, and some real forward thinking is required. It will not happen if we leave it to Energy Companies and Subsidy Profiteers.

As for the rusting piles of steel turbines in the sands of California and Hawaii? There is no subsidy available to remove them so they remain. Clanking and rusting in their thousands.

"Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
GLADMAN
950 posts

Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 07, 2013, 11:43
Difficult to put across a balanced viewpoint, Moss. As with 'man made climate change' there is far too much politics involved, far too much money to be made, far too many research grants to be withheld if findings appear to contradict the politically acceptable. It's always been the same.... just been reading about Victoria vetoing Darwin's knighthood since his closely argued views apparently didn't concur with that of the 'mood of the country'. We need more people of his ilk to simply analyse the data and (eventually) publish and be damned. Give us something to base proper decisions upon.

To my mind industrial activity can work in rural settings - I think hydro electricity is a Big Way Forward - but would suggest it needs to be on a case by case basis. For example I've surprisingly found myself far less opposed - aesthetically speaking, the ethics etc may well be up for debate since I'm not aware of the details - to the widespread salmon farming in Scottish lochs. Local men working in their local environment. No doubt there are complications.

The main issue I have with wind turbines is that the locations which would appear most potentially productive in terms of output (the uplands of Mid Wales being a prime example)... where nobody goes (perhaps they should) .... are precisely those last bastions of the natural world, the last watered-down vestiges of 'wilderness' (if the term has any meaning at all now - probably not) that we should be fighting tooth and nail to protect, if only to avoid that Bruce Dern scenario in Silent Running. What are the alternatives to smothering the mountain and hill tops in

More to the point the published evidenced as to the effectiveness of wind turbines - to me as a layman, anyway - can often appear contradictory, mutually exclusive. Which side is telling the truth? Maybe that's a result of the technology being deployed to make money and not power? I have to admit it is a rare sight indeed to see turbines actually turning, and talking to some upland farmers that is not surprising. One said that after signing the agreement he had to point out to the contractors that they were erecting the turbines on the wrong hill if they wanted to best utilise the prevailing south-westerly (or whatever it was). Did they care? Did they jack. Somehow, as with the future of energy production in general, we need to have a proper scientific debate without all the 'eco-loon' or 'climate-change denier' bullshit. Meanwhile the firms with the contracts are laughing all the way to the bank.
moss
moss
2897 posts

Edited Dec 08, 2013, 07:53
Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 07, 2013, 16:20
GLADMAN wrote:
Difficult to put across a balanced viewpoint, Moss. As with 'man made climate change' there is far too much politics involved, far too much money to be made, far too many research grants to be withheld if findings appear to contradict the politically acceptable. It's always been the same.... just been reading about Victoria vetoing Darwin's knighthood since his closely argued views apparently didn't concur with that of the 'mood of the country'. We need more people of his ilk to simply analyse the data and (eventually) publish and be damned. Give us something to base proper decisions upon.

To my mind industrial activity can work in rural settings - I think hydro electricity is a Big Way Forward - but would suggest it needs to be on a case by case basis. For example I've surprisingly found myself far less opposed - aesthetically speaking, the ethics etc may well be up for debate since I'm not aware of the details - to the widespread salmon farming in Scottish lochs. Local men working in their local environment. No doubt there are complications.

The main issue I have with wind turbines is that the locations which would appear most potentially productive in terms of output (the uplands of Mid Wales being a prime example)... where nobody goes (perhaps they should) .... are precisely those last bastions of the natural world, the last watered-down vestiges of 'wilderness' (if the term has any meaning at all now - probably not) that we should be fighting tooth and nail to protect, if only to avoid that Bruce Dern scenario in Silent Running. What are the alternatives to smothering the mountain and hill tops in

More to the point the published evidenced as to the effectiveness of wind turbines - to me as a layman, anyway - can often appear contradictory, mutually exclusive. Which side is telling the truth? Maybe that's a result of the technology being deployed to make money and not power? I have to admit it is a rare sight indeed to see turbines actually turning, and talking to some upland farmers that is not surprising. One said that after signing the agreement he had to point out to the contractors that they were erecting the turbines on the wrong hill if they wanted to best utilise the prevailing south-westerly (or whatever it was). Did they care? Did they jack. Somehow, as with the future of energy production in general, we need to have a proper scientific debate without all the 'eco-loon' or 'climate-change denier' bullshit. Meanwhile the firms with the contracts are laughing all the way to the bank.


"proper decisions upon." Problems is we have no proper governance as you have already outlined, only Steve Bell's cartoons of fat cats to remind us that we are governed by greed and short term 'sticky plaster' solutions.

I have no problem with the aesthetics of wind farms, (but my judgment is not important) they will visually be on the more remote hills but if the choice is between clean energy and the energy we are using at the moment , then so be it. As for there efficiency, hopefully in the future they will become more efficient and we will be able to store electricity.

Water is of course the other obvious choice, we have 40,000 miles of coastline (I think) and hydro turbines are something else on the table.

Losing archaeology along the way will have to be another choice, same as the archaeology we lose under roads and houses.

Such green steps as moving forward to cleaner fuels is needed in our world, that we have to do it on the backs of such crap people and the behest of the stock market is sad; John Muir Trust has written about Scottish turbines, but cannot find the money to fight the latest wind turbine project that it objects to. It is also at the moment asking for donations to buy some 'wild' land round Snowdonia, £500,000, so somewhere someone gets rich on land.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6219 posts

Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 08, 2013, 14:31
Mustard wrote:
We have few unspoiled areas left around these islands, so I don't think it's acceptable to ruin one of those just because it's windy.


I agree very much with this. Mid-Wales and the Monadhliath mountains of Scotland seem to be viewed as "expendable", sacrificial lambs in the choices being made, because, unlike the Cairngorms, or Snowdonia, or the Lake District, they're not tourist honey pots.

Yet both Mid-Wales and the Monadhliath have a remoteness that those tourist areas can only dream of. I think that remoteness should be saved, personally. Put some of the turbines up alongside motorways, out to sea, over the Home Counties of England (yes, they do get wind there, it's not confined to places out of sight of Westminster).

Let's keep those few surviving bastions of remoteness, why spoil the few places that have been left untouched by industry?
handofdave
handofdave
3515 posts

Re: Wind turbines; love them or hate them
Dec 08, 2013, 18:45
There's one thing for certain, a vista with wind towers is preferable to a dead, overheated planet.
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