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Trethevy Quoit...Cornwall's Megalithic Masterpiece
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Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 19:12
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
thesweetcheat wrote:
I'm not offended, but if you don't want to discuss the points, then this isn't a discussion!


I'm not so sure it is a discussion . I have made quite a few points lately complete with examplars haven't been rude etc , but they have been ignored .


What by me George? What were they only I thought I'd replied to all as best I can.



You have been busy ,no problem . here's one copied .
What matters is the quality of that evidence and the fact that is must be extraordianry to support the extraordinary claims .
Thinking along the lines of it being a jigasaw puzzle may not be helpful . It's not about coming up with the most efficient use of building blocks as seen from the perspective of the 21st c .
You could spend forever rearranging the component parts of monuments to suit a particualr aesthetic or the way they " should have been ".
Take Gaulstown http://www.themodernantiquaria[...]ite/1374/gaulstown.html(scroll to 6 th pic ) it has an unsupporting angled sidestone that is angled in the wrong direction to be of any use in the case of collapse does that make it wrong or suggest that there has been a re-arrangenment ?


Trethevy was a precision built tomb George. All angles were cut and the only three with no angles showing is the one that got damaged when the lid slipped, the front closure and the original backstone which is rounded. You should be able to work it all out from that. The Gaulstown one you show is like comparing a Rolls Royce with a mini. Trethevy is a real gem and special.
Right, dog exercise time. Had a great afternoon watching United getting trashed by the blues and answering questions and all in a good manner (with the odd exception!!)


You have missed the point about Gaulstown ,if you took the components apart you could make new monument more suited to whatever design you might imagine it to have been , all the angles are there but in the "wrong " order but obviously that is the way the builders intended it to be , not a "precision built tomb "

I think that is the problem Roy , you have used the materials from a portal tomb to create what you would like it to be rather than accept what the builders wanted . It's not a meccano monument or jigsaw puzzle with the bits in the wrong places ,it's another portal tomb that has suffered a bit of a collapse , the backstone fell into the body of the monument . Another example of a "precision built tomb " would be good but as Trethevy is the only one and only after much rearranging I find that equally as unconvincing as any potential evidence for the rearranging .


I don't see it as a problem George. You have no idea what the builders wanted anymore than you say I don't, but I have concentrated on Trethevy and not swapped from quoit to quoit. Nothing is the same that's why they are called variants. I just happen to believe that my interpretation of Threthevy is correct. Others can judge me when they see what I have writtten and how I came around to it.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 19:18
bladup wrote:
There's been a misunderstanding, the main capstone would have been on those big sidestones and maybe the middle one and the [supposed] destroyed backstone, but if you read what i first wrote you'll see i meant something was clearly placed on top of the chamber sidestones and the chamber backstone therefore sealing the chamber but under the main capstone, it's very hard to explain but so easy to see, try reading what i said again, i'm sure if you could see what i'm saying you'd see it straight away, I'd have love to have showed Roy before this new book because it could have helped him in regard to trethevy as they are very similar, to me Zennor proves that stones have been moved at Trethevy.


I'm yet to study Zennor thoroughly that's why I'm not comparing it or joining in with this side of the debate Paul. I'm very interested in it but will get around to it later. Magical place. Those huge flankers are something else and I'm sure are cut like that for a good reason.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6219 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 19:20
Thanks for that, I can see what you mean now.

But your plan (an extra chamber at the west end of Zennor) seems different from what Roy is suggesting for Trethevy, unless I've misunderstood that. I think Roy is suggesting that the "existing" chamber at Trethevy was subdivided into two (by the sloping stone), whereas at Zennor you're adding another chamber beyond the "existing" chamber rather than dividing it into two.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 19:24
bladup wrote:
Yes and all 3 would be covered on top, the Anti chamber by the big main capstone, the middle big one would have a stone [or wood] on top and be resting on the angled backstone [that's why it's at that angle] and the little back chamber would also be covered, and if the whole thing had walling up to the main capstone it would make another big space above the 2 inner chambers,


I may have misunderstood but if not . Zennor doesn't have an equivelant stone going from back to front creating two chambers as Roy has proposed for what I would call the backstone at Trethevy .
One other thing that effects both PT's and others is that there is no doubt that they had cairns , maybe up to the capstone in some cases but they needen't have went all the way up , and sloping sidestones could have been much as we see them today i.e. providing access and not necessrily "filled in ", why use them in the first place ? They could be an important focal point like no sidestones or the sloping capstone .
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 19:26
thesweetcheat wrote:
Thanks for that, I can see what you mean now.

But your plan (an extra chamber at the west end of Zennor) seems different from what Roy is suggesting for Trethevy, unless I've misunderstood that. I think Roy is suggesting that the "existing" chamber at Trethevy was subdivided into two (by the sloping stone), whereas at Zennor you're adding another chamber beyond the "existing" chamber rather than dividing it into two.


That's correct for me Alken but the chambers were for different purposes I suggest. Which reminds that when I have a re-run I must add a little more about the top chamber which I should have included. Will explain more when the book has been in circulation longer.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 19:48
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
thesweetcheat wrote:
I'm not offended, but if you don't want to discuss the points, then this isn't a discussion!


I'm not so sure it is a discussion . I have made quite a few points lately complete with examplars haven't been rude etc , but they have been ignored .


What by me George? What were they only I thought I'd replied to all as best I can.



You have been busy ,no problem . here's one copied .
What matters is the quality of that evidence and the fact that is must be extraordianry to support the extraordinary claims .
Thinking along the lines of it being a jigasaw puzzle may not be helpful . It's not about coming up with the most efficient use of building blocks as seen from the perspective of the 21st c .
You could spend forever rearranging the component parts of monuments to suit a particualr aesthetic or the way they " should have been ".
Take Gaulstown http://www.themodernantiquaria[...]ite/1374/gaulstown.html(scroll to 6 th pic ) it has an unsupporting angled sidestone that is angled in the wrong direction to be of any use in the case of collapse does that make it wrong or suggest that there has been a re-arrangenment ?


Trethevy was a precision built tomb George. All angles were cut and the only three with no angles showing is the one that got damaged when the lid slipped, the front closure and the original backstone which is rounded. You should be able to work it all out from that. The Gaulstown one you show is like comparing a Rolls Royce with a mini. Trethevy is a real gem and special.
Right, dog exercise time. Had a great afternoon watching United getting trashed by the blues and answering questions and all in a good manner (with the odd exception!!)


You have missed the point about Gaulstown ,if you took the components apart you could make new monument more suited to whatever design you might imagine it to have been , all the angles are there but in the "wrong " order but obviously that is the way the builders intended it to be , not a "precision built tomb "

I think that is the problem Roy , you have used the materials from a portal tomb to create what you would like it to be rather than accept what the builders wanted . It's not a meccano monument or jigsaw puzzle with the bits in the wrong places ,it's another portal tomb that has suffered a bit of a collapse , the backstone fell into the body of the monument . Another example of a "precision built tomb " would be good but as Trethevy is the only one and only after much rearranging I find that equally as unconvincing as any potential evidence for the rearranging .


I don't see it as a problem George. You have no idea what the builders wanted anymore than you say I don't, but I have concentrated on Trethevy and not swapped from quoit to quoit. Nothing is the same that's why they are called variants. I just happen to believe that my interpretation of Threthevy is correct. Others can judge me when they see what I have writtten and how I came around to it.


It is a problem when it becomes the driving force behind an idea . We base our assuumptions on what the builders wanted by what they built , not what we imagine might be better use of the components .

Where did the term variant come in , in relation to Trethevy I don't think I have seen it reference to Portal tombs .?
bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 19:57
I didn't know what Roy was saying because i'm waiting for my book and didn't want any spoilers, i was just saying Zennor has 2 , and with trethevy been close and very similar it would make sense also having two, are your wages so low that it won't stretch to 8 quid? i can hear the moths wings from here :OP
bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 20:06
The sidestones look the wrong way around on a lot of portal tombs because they had something [maybe wood] against them [and on them], therefore sealing the chambers, you see it again and the main capstones didn't seal the chambers on loads, it explains something in the design of loads that hasn't been explained, the trouble is i know what i mean but am shit at explaining it very well -one more try- the strange angle of the side stones is the hold something and seal the chamber, it's a very simple design, i hope you know what i mean [they were probably made of wood].
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 20:18
I'm sure "wood" is the missing dimension and the key to greater understanding of loads of megalithic sites, especially ones that might have been in regular use - but tombs? Having taken such trouble to make them last forever, would they have used an impermanent material?
bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: Similarities elsewhere?
Apr 01, 2013, 20:24
I'm sure there's some construction term for what i've seen at Zennor, and you'd end up with 2 sealed chambers apart from their little entrance gaps, everything works a treat, and have said to you before Roy next time something brings you this way make sure you let me show you, i've always had the feeling you'll learn more about Trethevy from what i've seen, you know i'd already seen the keying points at Trethevy, Zennor and Mulfra [and of course Chun], this made me see the rest, remember Zennor turns out [if your right] to be more intact than Trethevy and therefore a pretty good blueprint for certain elements of Trethevy as well, i bet they were even built by the same group of people, i think Trethevy would also have had a facade like Zennor but it's long gone and without excavation impossible to prove.
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