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drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2559 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 21:48
Think you'd better run quick. I think you've got a good idea what I've been up to. The artist has been busy!
Rhiannon
5291 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 21:55
"empty talk about respect but no substance about why.."

come come surely it's about the fact that these places have been there longer than any one of us, that they represent something bigger than individuals, that they represent (well more than represent, they are actually) this country's past, built by the ancestors of many of the people that live in this country today, maybe my ancestors or your ancestors. That we can choose to leave those structures as intact as we can, rather than dig into them or flatten them or plough them or steal the bones out of them or whatever indignities so many of them have suffered in the past. So then they might exist for our own descendents to look at 100s or 1000s of years hence. Is it not about accepting that the whim of an individual to satisfy their immediate desire to (say) climb up Silbury should actually be subordinate to the Greater Good of looking after the hill for the future?

Actually I think quite a few people have said that sort of thing.

(and don't think I'm being all sanctimonious, I wouldn't climb Silbury or carve my name on a standing stone, but I've sat on stones and walked along long barrows, patted rock art and stood on round barrows. But it doesn't have to be a black and white thing to make it not worth drawing a line?)
GLADMAN
950 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 22:04
Clearly it must be a very difficult - if not impossible - task to legislate against the damage of the prehistoric monuments of these Isles by the ignorant or willfully moronic.... consequently I've no wish to cast aspersions upon any official body looking to do so. It is a thankless task and I'm glad I live in a country where we at least attempt a task of such magnitude. Some people do care. So thank you EH and all the local bodies etc.

But the plain fact of the matter is there are many, many sites - it would be churlish to even estimate - which are being progressively trashed by landowners on a daily basis ... I know, because I've repeatedly seen it in action! And.... clearly, no-one is doing anything about it. Clearly, because if the authorities were the farmers wouldn't think they could get away with it. And I mean real trashing, the erecting of fences on hillfort ramparts, embedding barbed-wire in standing stones, using them as gateposts, using tracks driven through hillforts and barrows, erecting water tanks on the latter, clearing out upland cairns for shelters. Using hillforts and barrows as bloody BMX tracks. The list goes on.

So please, let's get real. The situation is not that of enthusiasts setting a bad example to tourists walking around Avebury or other honeypot sites. It is the very survival, the continuing existance of the sites most don't even know exist, that we should be fighting for. Out of sight must NOT mean out of mind, or else future generations will hold us responsible, just as I hold the bloody Victorians responsible for incalculable damage. Yeah, the sites where there isn't a nice information board, the sites where you have to climb barbed wire only to find cattle clambering all over them, grinding them into the mud. Climbing a standing stone is irrelevant by comparison. Let's get our priorities in order, please.

So again, please. Do not berate those that are willing to seek out these abandoned, obscure sites .... and actually interact with them .... put them back in the public consciousness, if only in a limited manner.... and perhaps most importantly make the landowners aware we are watching. In short, to actively DO something. I think this is priceless. Consequently I applaud them. They are the thin edge of the wedge... whether sufficient pressure will ever be applied to the 'wedge' to truly raise standards of general public awareness is a moot point.
tonyh27
22 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 22:20
Boy, do I not agree with that..

How on earth Am I going to find consensus with the idea of a code..
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6218 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 22:33
I don't disagree, but the question that I still don't have an answer to is, what are we saying is the principle behind all this discussion?

Are we saying it is about preservation and preventing damage? If so, then I agree wholeheartedly we should encourage preservation and try to prevent damage, as much as we can do so. I still feel (as I have said) that one of the best ways of achieving this is by educating and informing people about what these piles of rock and earth are, not by fencing them off and preventing access. I also think that we need to record what is there (before any other Priddy-style situation occurs) and this recording might well involve physical contact with the monument, whether it's walking around the ramparts of a hillfort, or climbing onto a cairn or barrow.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I still don't see what's wrong with Goff's cupmark picture, as I cannot see that any damage has been caused, yet it has been stated that taking it represents a "wrong" behaviour.

Alternatively, are we saying the principle is about "respecting" the monument? Tony makes a fair point about more modern cemeteries. In visiting a cemetery, or a medieval church, you are inevitably walking on someone's memorial, in some cases their actual grave. Yet, I don't think that this is viewed generally as being "disrespectful" towards those monuments. If one sets out to purposefully visit a prehistoric monument, unless you're a metal detectorist or a farmer with a JCB, you are probably visiting with some respectful purpose in mind. At least it will be your own opinion of what is respectful, and that will differ from person to person.

I mentioned a Boscawen-Un visit earlier in the thread, because it highlighted to me some of the fundamental difficulties with using such a subjective concept as "respect" as the basis for a set of hard and fast rules. People who have no "respect" won't care either way, many people who keep rigidly within "the rules" do so whilst actually showing no respect to anyone else, while those who do care will spend so much time agonising that they never leave their homes for fear of causing offence. Taking the Boscawen "ritual group", they showed no respect to any of the other visitors, although those visitors showed respect to them. Yet they can say, hand on heart, that they did not climb on the stones or cause any damage to the monument itself.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 22:48
Rhiannon wrote:
"empty talk about respect but no substance about why.."

come come surely it's about the fact that these places have been there longer than any one of us, that they represent something bigger than individuals, that they represent (well more than represent, they are actually) this country's past, built by the ancestors of many of the people that live in this country today, maybe my ancestors or your ancestors. That we can choose to leave those structures as intact as we can, rather than dig into them or flatten them or plough them or steal the bones out of them or whatever indignities so many of them have suffered in the past. So then they might exist for our own descendents to look at 100s or 1000s of years hence. Is it not about accepting that the whim of an individual to satisfy their immediate desire to (say) climb up Silbury should actually be subordinate to the Greater Good of looking after the hill for the future?

Actually I think quite a few people have said that sort of thing.

(and don't think I'm being all sanctimonious, I wouldn't climb Silbury or carve my name on a standing stone, but I've sat on stones and walked along long barrows, patted rock art and stood on round barrows. But it doesn't have to be a black and white thing to make it not worth drawing a line?)


Any form of excavation into a mound/tomb/barrow by archaeos can be seen as violating a sacred place, but in the main it is being done for a good purpose and not purposefully being disrespectful to the people buried there or the site itself. I personally don't approve of removing bodies from a neolithic tomb any more than I approve of a grave today being disturbed because it is a last resting place and should be respected. Just because a grave or tomb may be robbed out does not remove the 'sacredness' from a site as far as I am concerned because I believe they were built in special places of their time. I have the greatest of respect for our ancestors because as you say, they are us and without their presence we would not be here today. When I climbed over sacred stones/mounds/tombs when I was younger I was doing it because I didn't choose to understand quite what our ancestors meant to me but as I've got older I have since learnt the true meaning of respect as far AS I AM CONCERNED! What others do is down to them but of course the problem there is that if my belief is ignored and sites damaged by those that don't care, I and others like me suffer because of it while the abusers just walk away unperturbed because we are not spoiling their beliefs. BUT, if we did as they all do and don't care for our ancestors last resting places then of course they win again because their beliefs are being upheld.
Rhiannon
5291 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 22:49
so what bit don't you agree with?

Are you saying (for example) you don't think it's disrespectful (to ancestors, to other people, to objects, to people in future, which one?) to clamber onto one of the stones at Avebury?

But what would you be doing at avebury in the first place if you weren't specifically interested in that kind of place? So you must have some kind of feeling about the stones? So what's your own opinion about them?

I don't really get what you don't agree with, Do Elaborate.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6218 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 22:57
I could kiss you (but you might take offence). I would just like to record that I practically stood up and cheered this post.
jonnyj
28 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 23:21
Rhiannon wrote:


Are you saying (for example) you don't think it's disrespectful (to ancestors, to other people, to objects, to people in future, which one?) to clamber onto one of the stones at Avebury?



Is it disrespectful to enter the West Kennet longbarrow. ?
Should it be closed. ?
jonnyj
28 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 29, 2012, 23:22
GLADMAN wrote:
Clearly it must be a very difficult - if not impossible - task to legislate against the damage of the prehistoric monuments of these Isles by the ignorant or willfully moronic.... consequently I've no wish to cast aspersions upon any official body looking to do so. It is a thankless task and I'm glad I live in a country where we at least attempt a task of such magnitude. Some people do care. So thank you EH and all the local bodies etc.

But the plain fact of the matter is there are many, many sites - it would be churlish to even estimate - which are being progressively trashed by landowners on a daily basis ... I know, because I've repeatedly seen it in action! And.... clearly, no-one is doing anything about it. Clearly, because if the authorities were the farmers wouldn't think they could get away with it. And I mean real trashing, the erecting of fences on hillfort ramparts, embedding barbed-wire in standing stones, using them as gateposts, using tracks driven through hillforts and barrows, erecting water tanks on the latter, clearing out upland cairns for shelters. Using hillforts and barrows as bloody BMX tracks. The list goes on.

So please, let's get real. The situation is not that of enthusiasts setting a bad example to tourists walking around Avebury or other honeypot sites. It is the very survival, the continuing existance of the sites most don't even know exist, that we should be fighting for. Out of sight must NOT mean out of mind, or else future generations will hold us responsible, just as I hold the bloody Victorians responsible for incalculable damage. Yeah, the sites where there isn't a nice information board, the sites where you have to climb barbed wire only to find cattle clambering all over them, grinding them into the mud. Climbing a standing stone is irrelevant by comparison. Let's get our priorities in order, please.

So again, please. Do not berate those that are willing to seek out these abandoned, obscure sites .... and actually interact with them .... put them back in the public consciousness, if only in a limited manner.... and perhaps most importantly make the landowners aware we are watching. In short, to actively DO something. I think this is priceless. Consequently I applaud them. They are the thin edge of the wedge... whether sufficient pressure will ever be applied to the 'wedge' to truly raise standards of general public awareness is a moot point.



Hear hear.
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