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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Climbing on Standing Stones |
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 19:29
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One or two of us had already sussed it all out Geoff. http://megalithix.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/devils-den-clatford/
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 20:03
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jonnyj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: jonnyj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: jonnyj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: jonnyj wrote: nigelswift wrote: You're right of course, in the scheme of things climbing is of minimal significance compared with the other agents of damage. But I don't think "other things cause far more damage" is a good reason not to talk about a particular problem (I've heard metal detectorists hide behind that claim a zillion times) and this thread is about the particular issue of climbing after all. In any case, it's more significant than the damage it actually does and IMO as enthusiasts we have a duty to frown on it. If we don't react against it then who will? Every year we have EH allowing (yes, allowing) the world to see drunks climbing Stonehenge. It's a shame if TMA of all places reinforces their subliminal message that it doesn't really matter. As you say, "Does this mean we should all go and climb up the nearest standing stone to look for cupmarks? Probably not".... then let's say so, not to the self-certifiers that do it but to the public who could do with getting the right message not the one from that lot or EH. Nigel, i don't think anyone is defending climbing every stone you visit to inspect it for RA, take the Avebury stones for example, there's no need to, do your research first and generally find someone's already given such stones a thorough going over, Professor Terence Meaden for example. I understand in the case of the DD that there were no photographs of the top of the "capstone" hence validity in climbing it. I don't believe there is validity in climbing the DD at all. I'm not a professional photographer like you are just a keen amateur, but even I've worked out that if you want an aerial shot of a capstone you can use a pole. I do and it saves all the hassle and controversy. I don't know where you get the idea but i'm far from being a "professional photographer" Sanctuary, just someone who loves the ancient history of our isles. I sincerely believe climbing the DD was justified in this case, and as far as i understand it there were 6 people tops there that day, so comparing it to climbing the Avebury stones in front of several tens or even hundreds of people isn't valid in my eyes, i very much doubt any of those present that day would do that. Also, as many RA aficionados will tell you, there's no substitute for the human eye, look through any ancient sites forum and you'll soon find that RA "experts" are loathe to give any firm opinion without seeing the piece first hand, a photograph is no substitute i'm afraid. Of course a photo is no substitute but still no excuse to climb the DD IMO. You could have used a pole like I do if you only wanted confirmation then reported your find and if somebody wished to view it first hand then they are at liberty to arrange to do it in a more respectful way. It took me long enough to conform but conform I now have and I believe a better person for it. Firstly, i wasn't the photographer so "i" couldn't have used a pole. :) Secondly, have you ever tried to go through "officials channels" in relation to ancient monuments?, i'm guessing not if you think it actually gets you anywhere. Sorry, I took it that you were the photographer. So you were just there when it was taken right? And yes I have in reply to your question. I asked EH to send out a structural engineer to Trethevy Quoit a few months back as I considered the capstone had moved and he met me there two weeks later. It was the correct thing to do and by doing so I met a gentleman that spends a lot of his time looking at structures that are often abused and become dangerous because of thoughtless people clambering over them. I'd guess there's a little more urgency from the authorities if it's suspected a monument may be suffering structural problems, these were merely lowly cup marks, and i doubt those in a position to do so would act on the word of a few "amateur enthusiasts", it's a different ball park wouldn't you agree. ? The reason some monuments suffer from structural damage is because of a lack of respect shown by people who climb them. I was one of them once but have grown up since. I think I'm about done on this now as we are into the 'your turn now' syndrome and don't wish to prolong it any further.
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 20:11
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Firstly, I'm not sure people arguing for 'respect' are talking about respect for the dead people that were / weren't in the monuments. It's kind of about respect for the monuments themselves, that they've lasted all this time and they ought to be allowed to last a bit longer, not subjected to the careless treatment of people who are briefly alive now. But even if they are talking about respect for dead people, your argument isn;t very clear? Because you say you walk about the graveyard to visit your father or to see gravestones / churchy things , and that walking where people are buried is ok in that case because they're everywhere, you can't help it, and you don't mean any harm by it. Indeed, I'm sure everyone would agree. But how do you extrapolate from that, how climbing on top of something in the middle of an empty field is ok if you don't mean any harm by it? It's not the same at all, because it's completely avoidable. Unlike the graveyard example. just saying. In the name of debate and all.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 20:11
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Resonox wrote: Sanctuary wrote: I don't believe there is validity in climbing the DD at all. I'm not a professional photographer like you are just a keen amateur, but even I've worked out that if you want an aerial shot of a capstone you can use a pole. I do and it saves all the hassle and controversy. Yes excellent quality as are the videos I take as well. I have a pole that extends to 20ft which I can attach my HD camcorder and my 16MP digital camera to with the digi camera on a timer. Both are so light you don't even know you have them. On the top of the pole is a swivel link that you can screw down to set your camera at a suitable angle. Drawbacks...forget it when it's windy with regard to the stills. You still get the picture but maybe not exactly where you wanted it. And be prepared for some strange looks :-)
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tonyh27 22 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 20:39
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Sanctuary wrote: jonnyj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: jonnyj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: jonnyj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: jonnyj wrote: nigelswift wrote: You're right of course, in the scheme of things climbing is of minimal significance compared with the other agents of damage. But I don't think "other things cause far more damage" is a good reason not to talk about a particular problem (I've heard metal detectorists hide behind that claim a zillion times) and this thread is about the particular issue of climbing after all. In any case, it's more significant than the damage it actually does and IMO as enthusiasts we have a duty to frown on it. If we don't react against it then who will? Every year we have EH allowing (yes, allowing) the world to see drunks climbing Stonehenge. It's a shame if TMA of all places reinforces their subliminal message that it doesn't really matter. As you say, "Does this mean we should all go and climb up the nearest standing stone to look for cupmarks? Probably not".... then let's say so, not to the self-certifiers that do it but to the public who could do with getting the right message not the one from that lot or EH. Nigel, i don't think anyone is defending climbing every stone you visit to inspect it for RA, take the Avebury stones for example, there's no need to, do your research first and generally find someone's already given such stones a thorough going over, Professor Terence Meaden for example. I understand in the case of the DD that there were no photographs of the top of the "capstone" hence validity in climbing it. I don't believe there is validity in climbing the DD at all. I'm not a professional photographer like you are just a keen amateur, but even I've worked out that if you want an aerial shot of a capstone you can use a pole. I do and it saves all the hassle and controversy. I don't know where you get the idea but i'm far from being a "professional photographer" Sanctuary, just someone who loves the ancient history of our isles. I sincerely believe climbing the DD was justified in this case, and as far as i understand it there were 6 people tops there that day, so comparing it to climbing the Avebury stones in front of several tens or even hundreds of people isn't valid in my eyes, i very much doubt any of those present that day would do that. Also, as many RA aficionados will tell you, there's no substitute for the human eye, look through any ancient sites forum and you'll soon find that RA "experts" are loathe to give any firm opinion without seeing the piece first hand, a photograph is no substitute i'm afraid. Of course a photo is no substitute but still no excuse to climb the DD IMO. You could have used a pole like I do if you only wanted confirmation then reported your find and if somebody wished to view it first hand then they are at liberty to arrange to do it in a more respectful way. It took me long enough to conform but conform I now have and I believe a better person for it. Firstly, i wasn't the photographer so "i" couldn't have used a pole. :) Secondly, have you ever tried to go through "officials channels" in relation to ancient monuments?, i'm guessing not if you think it actually gets you anywhere. Sorry, I took it that you were the photographer. So you were just there when it was taken right? And yes I have in reply to your question. I asked EH to send out a structural engineer to Trethevy Quoit a few months back as I considered the capstone had moved and he met me there two weeks later. It was the correct thing to do and by doing so I met a gentleman that spends a lot of his time looking at structures that are often abused and become dangerous because of thoughtless people clambering over them. I'd guess there's a little more urgency from the authorities if it's suspected a monument may be suffering structural problems, these were merely lowly cup marks, and i doubt those in a position to do so would act on the word of a few "amateur enthusiasts", it's a different ball park wouldn't you agree. ? The reason some monuments suffer from structural damage is because of a lack of respect shown by people who climb them. I was one of them once but have grown up since. I think I'm about done on this now as we are into the 'your turn now' syndrome and don't wish to prolong it any further. You know very well Roy you can't back that up.. This is conversation and at the moment all I hear is empty talk about respect but no substance about why.. You Guys aren't wining me over and I would like to see a code..
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tonyh27 22 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 20:40
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The monuments are graves - As in DD.. No difference to me from the graves I find at our local church yard
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 20:44
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(It's alright Tony, I wouldn't take it too personally especially as this is the first forum topic it would seem you've contributed to eh.) But for me, if I was hypothetically standing on a stone at Avebury, if someone tackled me about it, the very thing that would make me get down would be shame. Either I'd feel ashamed and apologise and get down. Or I'd get stroppy with the face-to-face person and tell them to mind their own business and eff off. I can't see such a scenario triggering some kind of polite debate with most people? By the time someone comes up to you / you decide to go up to someone, then conversation seems a bit unlikely? But if there are obvious notices up saying 'do not climb on the stones' then maybe I wouldn't have clambered up there in the first place.
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tonyh27 22 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 20:48
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All contact with monuments or graves or whatever are avoidable. Other than the guys that have to maintain them.. Your respect is no greater or higher than mine or anybody else.. It's opinion.. And as of this moment even though I want to have a code that protects all monuments, I find.. Being looked down on, shamed and asked to respect the views of others that I don't believe in has not helped.. Dictating to others what they should do or belive will never work..
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thesweetcheat 6218 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 20:51
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tonyh27 wrote: If you enter the graveyard of a 800+ year old church then just about wherever you go is or was a grave... Standing on a capstone is no worst just because it's older And I really can't see the difference between standing on the Capstone of DD or standing on WKLB or Adams Grave or any other type of barrow or burial place. If anybody believes that standing on DD's capstone is disrespectful then thats your opinion. Doesn't mean it is disrespectful. It's just you belive it to be so.. Having said that I haven't climbed DD or any other stone and nor do I wish to.. and I don't feel a better man for it. Because there is no moral high ground here to be gained, other than in the eyes of Men/Women who wish it.. (IMO) I think you're right Tony. People walk around Westminster Abbey and in doing so are walking over memorial slabs and vaults. It is indeed a matter of opinion. I have never climbed up a standing stone, but I have walked along several long barrow mounds and onto numerous upland cairns. I have sat upon recumbent or fallen stones, often made of rock hard granite on remote moorland or mountain. I don't think I am "disrespecting" the sites by doing so. In fact it is respect for the site that brings me there in the first place. There is indeed no moral high ground to be gained here, but I do feel the need to defend myself when there is so clearly a particular viewpoint that says that my actions are wrong, damaging or disrespectful.
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tonyh27 22 posts |
Feb 29, 2012, 21:04
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Exactly.. Nothing to be gained by such tactic's at all.. Talk to me face to face as an equal and I will respond as such.. I have a great desire to help Brian's wish for a code but I will not bend to sneering or attempts to shame me.
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