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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 06:35
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tiompan wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Littlestone wrote: BuckyE wrote: Littlestone wrote: Over twelve and a half thousand years old (and there are lots still there). Jeeze... And the most amazing thing about its age is its (yet to be found) predecessors' (implied) ages. The carving and architecture of the four large structures are obviously the result of a multi-generational trial and training effort. So the beginnings of this megalithic culture have to be much older than GT. Jeeze... yes, hadn’t thought of that. Reliefs with that sort of sophistication must have needed centuries to evolve - though not necessarily evolve in stone. The prototypes may have been carved in wood. We talk about the carving in stone. If that wasn't hard enough 12,500+ years ago imagine what it was like in wood with no 'tools' as such! I completed my apprenticeship as a joiner in a workshop with no electical tools and I can tell you it was damn hard work for a lad, and that was with decent hand tools, not lumps of flint or rocks! Timber may be soft compared to rock but it's no easy material to work with without highly sharpened tools. It's one thing cutting down a tree with a flint axe but just try carving some to a good standard with the same equipment. Feel free to try it any time :-) The few representational wood carvings that have survived eg. http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-190-001-098-C http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Kingsteignton/TheKingsteigntonIdolbyRichardHarris.htm are pretty rough . Yes and you'll notice that all the 'work' is done with the grain and not against it.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 07:15
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GodfatherND wrote: The lintels (the top stones) at Stonehenge were joined together using another woodworking style: tongue and groove. And the uprights stub tenoned and morticed to the lintols!
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Edited Dec 24, 2012, 10:02
Dec 24, 2012, 09:48
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Hi GodfatherND (and welcome to TMA :-) Sanctuary, or someone more au fait with jointing techniques, can probably clarify what’s going on at Stonehenge, but my understanding is that, “...mortise-and-tenon joints secure lintels to supporting sarsens, while tongues similar to toggle joints link each lintel in the outer circle to its neighbor." (Elizabeth L. Newhouse, ed. The Builders, Marvels of Engineering. Washington, D.C.: The National Geographic Society, 1992. p205). The point I was trying to make (not very clearly I’m afraid) was that the mortise-and-tenon joints are (as would be expected) more rounded, less angular, as they are in woodworking. Apart from the extra effort involved in producing angular wood-type joints in stone there would just be little to be gained in doing so. The converse is true – wood lends itself more easily to angular working. I think it’s always been assumed that the mortise-and-tenon joints at Stonehenge were imitating a woodworking tradition. What I’m suggesting is that it may have been the other way round – ie that the mortise-and-tenon joints that we are now so familiar with in woodworking may have followed on, not preceded, a much older stone-based technique.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 10:32
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Littlestone wrote: Hi GodfatherND (and welcome to TMA :-) Sanctuary, or someone more au fait with jointing techniques, can probably clarify what’s going on at Stonehenge, but my understanding is that, “...mortise-and-tenon joints secure lintels to supporting sarsens, while tongues similar to toggle joints link each lintel in the outer circle to its neighbor." (Elizabeth L. Newhouse, ed. The Builders, Marvels of Engineering. Washington, D.C.: The National Geographic Society, 1992. p205). The point I was trying to make (not very clearly I’m afraid) was that the mortise-and-tenon joints are (as would be expected) more rounded, less angular, as they are in woodworking. Apart from the extra effort involved in producing angular wood-type joints in stone there would just be little to be gained in doing so. The converse is true – wood lends itself more easily to angular working. I think it’s always been assumed that the mortise-and-tenon joints at Stonehenge were imitating a woodworking tradition. What I’m suggesting is that it may have been the other way round – ie that the mortise-and-tenon joints that we are now so familiar with in woodworking may have followed on, not preceded, a much older stone-based technique. Both the rounded stub-tenons to the top of the uprights and the tongued end joints of the lintols are purely to prevent lateral movement, they do not prevent vertical movement so can be lifted, which of course is the reverse of how they were placed in position. You may have seen, like I did in Egypt LS, the amazing roof slabs on the temples that were locked together by the use of a double-dovetailed separate stone block. That took my breath away and still does!
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 10:58
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Littlestone wrote: Hi GodfatherND (and welcome to TMA :-) Sanctuary, or someone more au fait with jointing techniques, can probably clarify what’s going on at Stonehenge, but my understanding is that, “...mortise-and-tenon joints secure lintels to supporting sarsens, while tongues similar to toggle joints link each lintel in the outer circle to its neighbor." (Elizabeth L. Newhouse, ed. The Builders, Marvels of Engineering. Washington, D.C.: The National Geographic Society, 1992. p205). The point I was trying to make (not very clearly I’m afraid) was that the mortise-and-tenon joints are (as would be expected) more rounded, less angular, as they are in woodworking. Apart from the extra effort involved in producing angular wood-type joints in stone there would just be little to be gained in doing so. The converse is true – wood lends itself more easily to angular working. I think it’s always been assumed that the mortise-and-tenon joints at Stonehenge were imitating a woodworking tradition. What I’m suggesting is that it may have been the other way round – ie that the mortise-and-tenon joints that we are now so familiar with in woodworking may have followed on, not preceded, a much older stone-based technique. LS there are examples of mortise and tenon in wood pre -dating Stonehenge e.g. http://www.world-archaeology.com/news/neolithic-treasure-chest/ .
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 11:04
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Aye, that’s it Mr S. Just been talking with moss about the columns at Karnack – they're so close together because of the (span) restrictions of the lintels. Same thing at Abydos. I guess something similar was at play at Stonehenge as well – ie the spacing between the uprights was dictated by the limitations of the lintels. Jeeze... Abydos... that place is still roofed. Remember a couple of hours drive to get there but it was worth it. Had the place all to myself (other than a shadowy attendant who flittered behind one column after another). He did show me where the Osireion was though. Bloody ‘ell, what were they up to! "OK fellas, we’ll haul another of those double-decker size rocks into place today – see if it fits properly and looks alright." ;-)
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 11:13
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tiompan wrote: LS there are examples of mortise and tenon in wood pre -dating Stonehenge e.g. http://www.world-archaeology.com/news/neolithic-treasure-chest/ . Nice link tiompan, though it doesn’t really prove that mortise and tenon joints in wood preceded those in stone – just that those in the well preceded those at Stonehenge.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 12:03
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tiompan wrote: Littlestone wrote: Hi GodfatherND (and welcome to TMA :-) Sanctuary, or someone more au fait with jointing techniques, can probably clarify what’s going on at Stonehenge, but my understanding is that, “...mortise-and-tenon joints secure lintels to supporting sarsens, while tongues similar to toggle joints link each lintel in the outer circle to its neighbor." (Elizabeth L. Newhouse, ed. The Builders, Marvels of Engineering. Washington, D.C.: The National Geographic Society, 1992. p205). The point I was trying to make (not very clearly I’m afraid) was that the mortise-and-tenon joints are (as would be expected) more rounded, less angular, as they are in woodworking. Apart from the extra effort involved in producing angular wood-type joints in stone there would just be little to be gained in doing so. The converse is true – wood lends itself more easily to angular working. I think it’s always been assumed that the mortise-and-tenon joints at Stonehenge were imitating a woodworking tradition. What I’m suggesting is that it may have been the other way round – ie that the mortise-and-tenon joints that we are now so familiar with in woodworking may have followed on, not preceded, a much older stone-based technique. LS there are examples of mortise and tenon in wood pre -dating Stonehenge e.g. http://www.world-archaeology.com/news/neolithic-treasure-chest/ . Just a small point but the correct spelling for the joint is Mortice with a c not as s. There are three types of mortice and tenon joints. The standard joint when the tenon extends to the full depth of the timber and is wedged from either side of its width...the same type but the tenon extends beyond the width of the timber and a square hole cut through it to accept a wedge. This is/was used a lot in roofing and in ship building. The third is the stub tenon which only extends to a chosen depth into the receiving timber and does not go right through. Of course there are slight variations on each one (especially when you are an apprentice and cock it up!!!) LOL
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 12:33
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Littlestone wrote: Aye, that’s it Mr S. Just been talking with moss about the columns at Karnack – they're so close together because of the (span) restrictions of the lintels. Same thing at Abydos. I guess something similar was at play at Stonehenge as well – ie the spacing between the uprights was dictated by the limitations of the lintels. Jeeze... Abydos... that place is still roofed. Remember a couple of hours drive to get there but it was worth it. Had the place all to myself (other than a shadowy attendant who flittered behind one column after another). He did show me where the Osireion was though. Bloody ‘ell, what were they up to! "OK fellas, we’ll haul another of those double-decker size rocks into place today – see if it fits properly and looks alright." ;-) It was Abydos that I met the custodian with the old Webley pistol. Bit of a story but we arrived on the coach and I teamed up with a young couple on their honeymoon (talk about three being a crowd :-) ). We were wondering around and also felt we were being shadowed. Turned out we were by this custodian and his son, daughter-in-law and their two children, one in arms! I had taken cheapo biro pens with me because I hhad been told they were much valued. I indicated to them that I would like to give one to the older child. This was accepted and the boys father brought him forward so that I could give it to him. I then indicated that I would like the babe in arms to have one as well. Much to our amazement the young wife stepped forward, dropped her veil and accepted it. That sort of made my day as it meant I had 'broken through' and had been accepted myself. Anyway we were then invited to visit the old mans 'house'. Jeepers what an experience that was. We were let to a corner of the temple which was in total darkness where he produced a battery lantern. That lit up the most amazing stone spiral staircase that had hyrogliphics(sp) to the stair risers, stone stringers and the entire walls all the way to the top. They were identical in various shapes and looked like they had been burnt in with the same branding iron! The staircase ended on the completly flat stone roof which was breathtaking. Bloody HUGE capstones and linked to gether with those dovetailed stones that went right through, not like many others that are only about 6" deep. Anyway we walked across this roof to a corner where there were rows upon rows of 'Gregian Urn' type pots in a corballed fashion making up the only two walls of the custodians 'house'. Jeez he had nothing. Across the two walls were spread bamboo or something similar with palm tree leaves spread out over them. There was a parched-out flat log that served as a table and some large cushions to sit on and not much else other than a bed with skins draped over it. I tell you what, it doesn't half make you feel humble. That apart we chatted away as best we could with the wife completely relaxed and veil free. I loved it. It was then that he produced his pistol and gave us a demo on how he would 'arrest' someone for not respecting the temple. He was a real card. He told us he was past 80 and had only seen rain three times in his life and his son NEVER!! What a trip that was and one never to forget.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 24, 2012, 12:36
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Littlestone wrote: tiompan wrote: LS there are examples of mortise and tenon in wood pre -dating Stonehenge e.g. http://www.world-archaeology.com/news/neolithic-treasure-chest/ . Nice link tiompan, though it doesn’t really prove that mortise and tenon joints in wood preceded those in stone – just that those in the well preceded those at Stonehenge. Of course ,it only pushes back the earliest date of a particular type . Just as if we find an earlier mortice and tenon in stone tomorrow it only means it preceded the earliest , as yet , wooden ones . it can never be absolute .
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