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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Stonehenge » Yobs allowed to climb on Stonehenge – yet again! |
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summerlands 192 posts |
Jun 22, 2011, 20:32
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The year I went, must have been about 1999 / 2000 when I still lived that way, we went hoping for a kind of quiet awe struck, amazed kind of experience and we were a bit overwhelmed by the crowds / litter / stone climbing. I have to say I remember A LOT of (non official looking) people telling people to get off stones or be quiet so others could enjoy it, but notbody seemed to have the power to do anything. The official presence seemed quite heavy in the parking field and surrounding roads, but not to be found around the stones. I suppose they felt they could do little too - or were afraid to try. For the two min's or so people did shut up, right before the sun came up, it *was* pretty special, but otherwise it was a little bit of a box ticking excercise and something to talk about at work / the pub the next day... I don;t really know what the answer is to be fair... :-S |
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Edited Jun 22, 2011, 21:57
Jun 22, 2011, 20:43
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I don't know how you can filter out riff raff scum. You can't and it doesn't matter. What you can do is restrict numbers to a point where things are managable. EH has demonstrated for .... twelve years is it? .... that holding liaison meetings and giving high vis vests to stewards doesn't stop people climbing on the stones. Why? Because there are too many people to be able to do anything about it. And why haven.t they taken steps to reduce numbers? Because riff-raff promise another Beanfield if they do. Blackmail by complete shites. It ought to be emphasised that no-one has ever said close the place, just take steps to ensure things can be controlled. Is that such an unreasonable stance? I'm surprised to see people on TMA saying climbing on stones at solstice at Stonehenge doesn't matter. EH, King Arthur, Rollo Maughfling, all the Druid groups, all the pagans and UNESCO think it does, both in itself and in the way it devalues prehistoric sites and makes them look less precious than Tudor Manor Houses in the eyes of the public. I've just got back from bloody Priddy, the complete absence of part of which rather supports that line of thinking. |
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Resonox 604 posts |
Jun 23, 2011, 05:44
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Resonox wrote: Idle curiosity but I've asked this before and never had an answer.......Does anyone know or are there any accounts as to, in what way(how)was the solstice etc celebrated here prior to Alexander Keiller's renovation work or did people(various worshippers) "reclaim the site" after the stones were re-erected? When the stones were lying awry surely they wouldn't have "aligned" with the sun, the moon and Harry etc...maybe nobody knows...which is fair enough...but usually there is a mine of info gleaned from other posters. ....Do people currently climb on the stones to claim the "glory" for being the first person to see the sunrise? If the purpose of these stones is indeed to witness sunrise(set) and observe the shadows cast...does the simple act of vandalism(for in reality it is nothing less) by climbing up there not spoil the intents of others immensely? Of course it might be a desire to feel as though they(the climbers) are objects of worship themselves by forcing their drunken presence on the genuine revellers...."Look at me ma..top of the world!". A H&S issue...if anyone falls off and is severely hurt where does the blame lie...we are in a "blame someone else and don't accept responsibility for your own stupidity" culture after all?
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Jun 23, 2011, 06:34
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Oh Nigel I'm not sure anyone here is saying 'it doesn't matter'? that's a bit unfair. Though in effect I admit it may be that it's been said it almost has to be tolerated. I don't think anyone is saying carry on as you please, I think everyone here wants people to stop bloody climbing all over it if at all possible. You have a good idea though, the reducing numbers. And why on earth not. I mean consider glastonbury. That used to be a free festival in a field did it not. But it became the victim of its own popularity and eventually Mr Eavis has had to spend all that money on a massive fence to keep people out. (Granted, glastonbury is now probably a more middle class pursuit than it used to be). And people were probably extremely peeved when they discovered they couldn't sneak in any more. But how do you reduce numbers at stonehenge without gatecrashers, a massive police cordon or a glastonbury-style fence? The former seems heavy handed but the latter too expensive and slightly ridiculous. But even with reduced numbers wouldn't you get people climbing on the stones? Or are you talking about reducing them down to a few hundred, how would that be done? isn't the point that it's one of those 'just turn up' things, that's why it appeals to the people that it does - they're not going to go online and put themselves in for a state-run lottery. Or Are They. Perhaps these days of facebook they just might, it's not the 1980s any more. What you need surely is massive scary bouncers like they have at night clubs. And they detach offenders limb from limb from the stones. Shouldn't it already be like that regardless of numbers. It doesn't have to be the police, if that's what would get people's backs up. I mean if you're there on an EH world heritage site, you have surely effectively promised not to damage the damn thing. They would have every right to pull you off them, surely. Why doesn't that happen now? It's not unreasonable. It's a million miles away from anything beanfieldish. |
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moss 2897 posts |
Jun 23, 2011, 06:56
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Well a quick journey through the news this morning, shows that there is worldwide coverage, could be just what EH wanted for a 'tourism kick', interestingly enough a couple of articles in the Independent and Guardian question the whole business of 'the gathering' http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2011/jun/21/stonehenge-solstice-takeover http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/is-nothing-sacred-the-solstice-isnt-what-it-used-to-be-2300773.html I suspect that when the old visitor centre (and loos) are closed down and everyone has to walk, there will be other problems to face but that is a future worry. As for climbing on stones, it should'nt be done, Nigel and Rhiannon can work that one out, it does really need reduced numbers at Stonehenge, and I did notice that the pagans held their ceremony against the wire netting could'nt they get into the centre for their gathering??. Daily Mail has the best piccies, but then their reporters are always OTT. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2006112/Summer-solstice-18-000-gather-cloudy-Stonehenge-night-party.html |
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Jun 23, 2011, 07:40
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Massive scary bouncers WOULD fix it Rhiannon. Harvey Goldsmith has no trouble. EH owe it to me and you personally to get some and protect the stones. End of. No brainer. BUT they're in thrall to people they think they have to negotiate with and not offend. And THEY think touchy feely stewards from their own community are the right thing. Well they ain't. It's my temple not theirs. Atheists Rule, OK. There's shitloads more of us so why won't EH give US what we want? As for numbers and ballots for places, 'course it would work. It works everywhere that people gather together inb a small or sensitive place. And it's perfectly fair. If people want to turn up on the spur of the moment and can't, so what? What other mass event CAN you do that at? Nowhere. AND they should be paying. You do realise that the "Free to all" mantra comes exclusively from 14 year old slack-jawed apprentice pagans off their heads on lager? ;) ;) |
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Jun 23, 2011, 08:59
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"Oh Nigel I'm not sure anyone here is saying 'it doesn't matter'? that's a bit unfair." Apologies for that, it was just my shorthand, I'm sure none of us here thinks that literally. I guess it's just that I think it shouldn't happen more strongly than most - not because of the particular merits of the case but because any lowering of the guard has wider general consequences on how stuff gets treated. I'm a zealot, see. It's a mean, killjoy job but someone has to do it! |
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Jun 23, 2011, 10:47
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Littlestone wrote: Follow the links to the photos and video. What a circus! Enough is enough! I sent a couple of newspaper clips to my cousin in Jersey who replied:- Whole thing is disgusting but loved this bit: Of the 20 arrests, 11 were for drugs offences and five for public order offences. In addition, 47 drug seizures were made. If there were 47 drug seizures, why only 20 arrests? Couple of cracking pictures though, but what I found really horrible is that these people are supposed to "loving, mystical, tuned in to nature and all that bollocks but just look at the mess they left behind them!! Couldn't have said it better! |
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The Sea Cat 3608 posts |
Edited Jun 23, 2011, 12:37
Jun 23, 2011, 12:34
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Sanctuary wrote: Couple of cracking pictures though, but what I found really horrible is that these people are supposed to "loving, mystical, tuned in to nature and all that bollocks but just look at the mess they left behind them!! Couldn't have said it better! Cider Pagans, Weekend Hippies, 4 x 4 Driving Eco Warriors, Uber New Agers (me first!) with kids named Solomon....They really do give me a cynical laugh. It's all about self marketing a LIFESTYLE IMAGE, yah ? Feckin' Pillox all. I meditate, hug trees, gaze in awe at Stones etc, but I respect and tread carefully. That's what it's about. Yours etc Disgruntled Hippy Of Somerset. |
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited Jun 23, 2011, 17:26
Jun 23, 2011, 16:16
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nigelswift wrote: "Oh Nigel I'm not sure anyone here is saying 'it doesn't matter'? that's a bit unfair." Apologies for that, it was just my shorthand, I'm sure none of us here thinks that literally. I guess it's just that I think it shouldn't happen more strongly than most - not because of the particular merits of the case but because any lowering of the guard has wider general consequences on how stuff gets treated. I'm a zealot, see. It's a mean, killjoy job but someone has to do it! There is nothing wrong with being passionate about what you hold most dear; I mentioned the possibility of moving the all-night party somewhere else nearby and just having the sunrise celebration at Stonehenge - there were no comments on that suggestion so I'm guessing the party is not popular anywhere in the vicinity of Stonehenge. Nigel to quote you from another post: "BUT they're in thrall to people they think they have to negotiate with and not offend. And THEY think touchy feely stewards from their own community are the right thing. Well they ain't. It's my temple not theirs. Atheists Rule, OK. There's shitloads more of us so why won't EH give US what we want?" Sorry, I have to disagree, Atheists don't rule OK. The Universe does and all it contains including the sun rising over the *Heel Stone at the summer solstice. That seems to be a cause for joy to the people who gather to watch it - though for the general good maybe alcohol should be banned - as it is at football matches (me being a killjoy now, as lets face it most people like a drink at a gathering). Meanwhile surely those who feel strongly about it should be petitioning their MPs to make it a prosecutable offence for anyone to climb on our most famous National Monument or to deface it in any way. *Perhaps the most famous of all ancient astronomical alignments is the summer solstice alignment at Stonehenge, Wiltshire. On the longest day of the year, viewed from the centre of the monument, the sun can be seen rising over the outlying Heel Stone between the massive uprights that form the central ring. The earth-banked Avenue that leads away from Stonehenge is aligned in the same direction for several hundred yards." From Danny Sullivan's Ley Lines - he then makes reference to William Stukeley (as Tiompan did in an earlier post). |
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