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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 20, 2009, 23:40
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Branwen wrote: Lots of art is representational, not accurate. Weren't different stars in the group visible in the past too? Older folklore, same stories, has nine maidens not seven. I read the pleideas used to have nine more visible stars. Wasn't there a lost pleiad - a wandering pleiad maybe it was... they may have looked very different. Dunno ,I assume thwey would have appeared much the same for the a few thousand years at lest but not sure . A lot of the problem with the nebra doodah is interp[reation of the biggest symbol whether it represents the sun or moon is critical but how can you tell which it is supposed to represent ? The crescent is more than likely a moon but it could represent an eclipsed sun , which doesn't help .
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Branwen 824 posts |
Edited Dec 20, 2009, 23:54
Dec 20, 2009, 23:47
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The amount of disinformation spread about the pleiades makes research difficult too. All I get is that "experts" agree the stars are the pleiades in the following article, but it describes and has links to the theory about the method of using it the disc to align the solar and lunar cycle, and some of the problems with that: http://www.laputanlogic.com/articles/2006/03/index.html
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 21, 2009, 00:11
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Branwen wrote: The amount of disinformation spread about the pleiades makes research difficult too. All I get is that "experts" agree the stars are the pleiades in the following article, but it describes and has links to the theory about the method of using it the disc to align the solar and lunar cycle, and some of the problems with that: http://www.laputanlogic.com/articles/2006/03/index.html Half way down " Alun " ,an archaeoastronomer doesnt' think it is the P word .
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Branwen 824 posts |
Dec 21, 2009, 01:55
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Praesepe in Cancer isn't any more like the seven stars on the Nebra sky disc than the Pleiades in Taurus.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 21, 2009, 09:37
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Branwen wrote: Praesepe in Cancer isn't any more like the seven stars on the Nebra sky disc than the Pleiades in Taurus. Agree , did somebody suggest it/them as opposed to the other P cluster ?,Alun ?
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Branwen 824 posts |
Dec 21, 2009, 11:53
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Yeah, it's his alternative star group which could serve the same purpose of letting you know when to align the solar and lunar calendars. Basically, when the pleiades and the moon align in it's crescent phase, it's time to add call that moon by an added-in extra name so the usual names align back up where they should be in the year, ie: wolf(?) moon in january or whatever they were called. This astrologer says other star groups would perform the same funtion, but other groups didn't have the same emphasis on them that pleiades and taurus had in those times, so why postulate a different set if they aren't any better?
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StoneGloves 1149 posts |
Dec 21, 2009, 12:17
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You might expect an interest in the constellation Taurus during the Age of Taurus - about seven to nine thousand years ago, by my calculations, perhaps.
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Branwen 824 posts |
Dec 21, 2009, 12:23
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Yeah, so why go looking for another star group that performs the same function... having no luck finding a reconstruction of what the pleiades looked like in that age though
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 21, 2009, 12:32
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Branwen wrote: Yeah, it's his alternative star group which could serve the same purpose of letting you know when to align the solar and lunar calendars. Basically, when the pleiades and the moon align in it's crescent phase, it's time to add call that moon by an added-in extra name so the usual names align back up where they should be in the year, ie: wolf(?) moon in january or whatever they were called. This astrologer says other star groups would perform the same funtion, but other groups didn't have the same emphasis on them that pleiades and taurus had in those times, so why postulate a different set if they aren't any better? Branwen , am i right in thinking that Alun didn't suggest this but an astrologer did ? Whoever , as you say it's frying pan and fire stuff .What gets me is ,if it's a fake then I imagine the fakers would have made a better job of the shape but the shape does have parallels in rock art rosettes . I doubt if the shape would have changed since the suggested date of the disc
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Branwen 824 posts |
Dec 21, 2009, 13:45
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A faker might just look up neolithic representations of the pleiades to copy, and come up with the rockart clusters, though. You're assuming they looked up actual representations of the pleiades to copy. This is the full quote from Laputan Logic: UPDATE: alun who is a specialist in this very subject of archeoastronomy makes some very interesting points about the problems with Hansen's theory. ods are inappropriate.[/quote]The latest astronomer to work on the disc is Ralph Hansen from Hamburg who said: “I wanted to explain the thickness of the crescent on the sky disc of Nebra because it is not a new moon phase.” ... [but] If Hansen is right, the disc is irrelevant to his theory. Hansen started by looking for a specific moon phase. There's two assumptions in this. One is that the phase is accurately depicted on the disc. The other is that the phase can also be accurately identified when observing the moon. It's not the phase that I'd look for. Over the course of two years the Moon would pass by the Pleiades (in various phases) twenty-five times. The easiest phase to observe would be first sighting of the New Moon passing by the Pleiades, and here's my first problem: this method would work just as well. It would be out of step with Hansen's method, but no more inaccurate. It's a bit like the difference between an hourly bus service which leaves once an hour on the hour and one that leaves once an hour at five minutes past the hour. Another issue is that the Moon doesn't just pass the Pleiades. It travels through the whole zodiac over twenty-nine days. What happens if, like me, you don't think the seven rivet cluster is the Pleiades? Let's say it's Praesepe in Cancer. Once again because we're talking about fixed cycles it makes no difference to the accuracy. The intercalary months would fall in different years, so this system would be out of step with Hansen's model, but no less accurate. What you have then is a use for the disc which works just as well if the Moon phase is wrong and whatever the cluster is. Hansen's method doesn't tell us much about the disc, but says a lot about how intelligent modern astronomers are. Is knowing when to insert an extra month really an astronomical problem? I don't think so. It's a social problem, and that means that astronomi Basically, Praesepe aligns every 2-3 years, same as the Pleiades, just in the full moon and in a different year. The thickness of the crescent moon is skipped over here, but might be relevant. The romans commenting on the celts said they placed importance on the sixth night of the moon, which could be what the crescent represents, which is when the moon passes through the pleiades, not praesepe. I assume the central star of the sylised cluster is Maia. Are the three stars next to the crescent the other two of the nine brighter stars with Atlas, or Mars, Mercury, and Venus. Aren't they in the sky when the crescent moon passes through the pleiades too? I dunno enpough about astronomy to remember if they are with praesepe too though. Are there similar groupings near the rockart clusters said to represent the pleiades?
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