GordonP
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Re: The bluestone debate
Nov 18, 2008, 21:43
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Can you quote some examples of big stones being successfully moved on rollers?
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Steve Gray
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Re: The bluestone debate
Nov 18, 2008, 21:50
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tonyh wrote: Talking of vegetation. It's not just the ground that has to been considered. moving a load through brushwood or woodland would be extremely difficult..
Tony
Since we are not talking about a wide swathe of land for dragging stones it would likely that some time would be spent preparing a decent route beforehand -- trees felled, brush cleared, streams forded, etc.
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tonyh
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Re: Draught Animals
Nov 18, 2008, 21:56
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Steve Gray wrote: fitzcoraldo wrote: So what about using draught animals?
Why do they never figure in the equation? Is there any evidence for or against the existance and use of draught animals in the late Neolithic /EBA?
They've generally been discounted on the basis that someone said large teams of oxen are notoriously difficult to control. However, pairs of oxen were often used for ploughing.
So what if 50 farmers turned up each with his own pair of oxen and a long rope? Each pair would be supervised by their owner and separated by enough space to avoid problems.
Sorry, but you fail to understand pulling power..
Each and every animal is pulling at a different rate..
It's why you attach animals to a central bar so as to equalise the effort..
Tony
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tonyh
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Re: The bluestone debate
Nov 18, 2008, 22:01
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Lets face it..
It's top heavy..
In any little swell it would turn over..
And then the problem is the ropes..
Tony
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Steve Gray
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Re: The bluestone debate
Nov 18, 2008, 22:21
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GordonP wrote: Can you quote some examples of big stones being successfully moved on rollers?
I already have. The Egyptians moved much larger stones than you are considering and documented their methods.
Can you quote some big stones being moved successfully by stone-rowing in a distance-time scale that comes even remotely near that of dragging?
I think it's highly likely that levering would have been used as a method of moving stones over difficult terrain or over (very) short distances, but you seem to want to discount dragging altogether just because it is an inconvenient challenge to your pet cause.
As you know I was a strong supporter of your stone-rowing idea until I saw the evidence of the only real first-hand example that we both have -- Foamhenge.
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GordonP
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Re: The bluestone debate
Nov 18, 2008, 22:42
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verifiable examples.
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Steve Gray
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Re: Draught Animals
Nov 18, 2008, 23:03
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tonyh wrote: Sorry, but you fail to understand pulling power..
That's a rather harsh disparagement to a physicist.
Surely, the whole point of a yolking bar is to keep the animals (and load) "locked" together as a team. It's role in distributing forces is incidental.
It was stated (in some previous thread a long time ago) that oxen could not easily be controlled as a team. If you refer back to my previous posting you will see that my proposition was phrased as a question. I was querying whether (if that assertion be true) they might be utilised as a collection of individual pairs rather than as a team.
I understand that the pulling rates are different. Nevertheless each pair would produce a force on their individual rope and those forces would be cummulative at the load, whether or not they are attached to a central bar.
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mountainman
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Re: The bluestone debate
Nov 18, 2008, 23:16
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nigelswift wrote: "Instead of carrying on a fascinating dialogue about technology, might it not save everybody a lot of intellectual effort if ...."
Well the discussion about technology relates to sarsen transport, not bluestones. If you can shift the biggest sarsen (which they did) you are doing something 7 or 8x harder than shifting the biggest bluestone and 15x harder than shifting the smaller ones. So it's worth discussing!
All this stuff about loading boats, ropes and so forth? I thought this was the Bluestone debate?
Presumably there is a Sarsen debate going on somewhere else...
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Steve Gray
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Re: The bluestone debate
Nov 18, 2008, 23:32
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GordonP wrote: verifiable examples.
"verifiable examples" to you too.
As I said, the only real first-hand example we both have is Foamhenge and we've been over that ad nauseum.
I know it's hard for you to swallow because you have invested so much time and effort in trying to prove the viability of your stone-rowing idea. I also invested a lot of time and effort in support of you, as did many others here, but faced both with rejection of that support and the overwhelming evidence of the day we accepted the obvious and moved on.
Of the people I know who were present at that demonstration, you are the only one who seems not to acknowledge the evidence of his own eyes, namely that dragging is a far more efficient way of moving large stones than stone-rowing.
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Steve Gray
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Re: The bluestone debate
Nov 18, 2008, 23:35
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tonyh wrote: It's top heavy..
In any little swell it would turn over..
For a minute there I thought you were referring to this TMA thread!
;o)
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