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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 24, 2007, 09:37
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Blubbing territory this - She takes my hand, but I cannot lead her Beyond the ring where the magic fixed her. She will be four years old forever, And crowned with flowers.
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Oct 24, 2007, 12:20
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The thing I like about it is that it sort of kicks you out of the Western/Christian 21st century mindset. Maybe a little raw to our 'modern' sensibilities but words like - ...midsummer’s Queen Hands over her whitening world to death- The fields by severance and the woods By slow decay. With her hair combed out In its red gold sheaves she is perfect strength And perfect beauty about to fade... are timeless and might resonate with anyone today who walks in the fields and woods at this time of year; perhaps it also reflects a little of how our ancestors related to their landscape. The poem was written in 1991 by the way.
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tjj 3606 posts |
Oct 24, 2007, 18:42
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LS, The verse you quote in your reply to Nigel Swift is indeed a vivid allegory of summer giving way to autumn and the turning of the year - I have re-read this poem a few times but cannot fathom what the symbolism of child sacrifice would be - and I'm not sure if it is based on historical fact (maybe I just don't want it to be). I accept that human sacrifice probably did take place and was wondering if anyone could throw light on any historical evidence that exists to corroborate this practice. regards tjj
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tjj 3606 posts |
Oct 24, 2007, 18:42
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LS, The verse you quote in your reply to Nigel Swift is indeed a vivid allegory of summer giving way to autumn and the turning of the year - I have re-read this poem a few times but cannot fathom what the symbolism of child sacrifice would be - and I'm not sure if it is based on historical fact (maybe I just don't want it to be). I accept that human sacrifice probably did take place and was wondering if anyone could throw light on any historical evidence that exists to corroborate this practice. regards tjj
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Oct 24, 2007, 19:35
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tjj wrote: LS, The verse you quote in your reply to Nigel Swift is indeed a vivid allegory of summer giving way to autumn and the turning of the year - I have re-read this poem a few times but cannot fathom what the symbolism of child sacrifice would be - and I'm not sure if it is based on historical fact (maybe I just don't want it to be). I accept that human sacrifice probably did take place and was wondering if anyone could throw light on any historical evidence that exists to corroborate this practice. regards tjj The difficulty is recognising the intention from the evidence , Lindow man has a few give aways but somebody who has had their throat cut then buried would eventually look a like a normal burial . Does suttee qualify as sacrifice ?, if so there are plenty pair burials whether it's a spouse accompanying the primary death or a slave ,who knows . Some pair burials also had stakes involved . Seems to have been a typical human practice for as long as we can tell.
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Oct 24, 2007, 21:13
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I accept that human sacrifice probably did take place and was wondering if anyone could throw light on any historical evidence that exists to corroborate this practice. I don't really have the knowledge to get involved with this one tjj, though as tiopan has indicated, "...Lindow man has a few give aways..." The death (sacrifice?) of John Barleycorn kinda sums it up for me, and some of Tony's poem is sort of in the same vein - John Barleycorn Must Die "John Barleycorn appeared in the Journal of Folk Song Society Volume VIII, 41. It was printed in the reign of James I but is said to be much older. There were several 17th century broadsides of the song. It was well-known throughout England. Variants from Sussex, Hampshire, Surrey, Somerset and Wiltshire were published in the Journal of Folk Song Society. "The ballad relates the tale of the Corn King, or Corn-God. According to James George Frazier's The Golden Bough, the Corn King was selected from the men of the tribe, treated as a king for a year, then at a pre-set time, danced the corn maze and was killed. His body was then dragged through the fields so the blood would run in the furrows and make the barley grow. Afterwards, he himself may have been eaten. "The barley was made into cakes and stored for the winter. Around the solstice, when it was evident the sun would come back for another year, the cakes were given to children to imbue them with the spirit of the corn king. They were called 'soal cakes' (soul cakes), and in England, kids still go a-soalin' for cookies. (Thank you, John Davis for the information!) "Barley is an ancient crop and was the chief bread grain in Europe as late as the 16th century."* * http://www.contemplator.com/england/jbcorn.html
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tjj 3606 posts |
Oct 24, 2007, 21:58
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Thanks Tiompan for your response, I did think of Lindow Man and yes I agree, the practice of suttee is well documented throughout history. Thanks also Littlestone for your very comprehensive and very interesting reply about the folk-lore surrounding John Barleycorn - and the link (I was quite startled when my lap-top suddenly burst into folk music). The Tony Grist poem speaks specifically of the sacrifice of a four year old female child and it was really that such practice I was asking about. I do admit that the twentieth century mother in me recoiled but my interest in anthropology (especially concerning the peoples of Britain) wanted to know more. A bit like "did they they really send children up chimneys and down mines in the 19th century". Another thread perhaps? Thanks again tjj
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moss 2897 posts |
Oct 25, 2007, 17:50
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There is supposedly a child sacrifice at the centre of Woodhenge, a young child its skull clefted/cleft with an axe. Burl was and is the expert on this one, though sometimes I suspect he relished the gloomy tale... Poets though like to dwell on death and wicked deeds and blood to bring forth the fertility of land.. ;) http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/7287/images/woodhenge.html
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tjj 3606 posts |
Oct 25, 2007, 18:31
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Thanks Moss, Your information about Woodhenge and the link is the best clue yet. I'm going way off the topic of megalthic-poems here, so don't really expect any further replies but I'm off on trail who find out who were the people who possibly sacrificed children - the concept is almost biblical. I'd better stop now before I get into trouble for subverting this thread (sorry LS). I've stopped. tjj
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Oct 25, 2007, 18:57
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There is supposedly a child sacrifice at the centre of Woodhenge, a young child... Thanks for that info moss - didn't know that, and it puts Tony's poem into more context. Don't worry too much about possibly subverting this thread tjj - it's gone off at various tangents before but manages to get back on track - usually with the help of Nigel (just wait, he'll throw in something else from some wandering 19th century vicar in a minute ;-)
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