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opinions on last night's question time
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grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 25, 2009, 15:03
handofdave wrote:
But are they actually seeing a rise in support?

As already established, yes they are.

handofdave wrote:
I should add that the KKK and it's equivalents in the USA are Republicans, for the most part, and tho that parties official line on racism is 'it's bad', they tacitly encourage hatred of nonwhites by giving a wink and a nod to the racists, as evidenced by the tone of the GOP rallies in the last election, where Sarah Palin was given free reign to whip up the mob with talk of Obama being a 'Kenyan terrorist' and the like.

I can only echo stray's sentiments on this. To fail to see the difference between mainstream rightwing politics and fascism is not merely bizarre, it's genuinely dangerous. Thanks to the US's 2-party system, it makes perfect sense that the KKK and the Far Right would vote Republican. Just as I'm fairly sure that Farrakhan's Nation of Islam followers all voted for Obama. Are we to assume they represent your views, handofdave. As an Obama-voter do you feel a kinship with them?

"All KKK vote Republican" is not the same thing as "All Republicans have KKK sympathies". Having lived in the States I've met numerous republican voters, to label them all as being members of the racist rightwing is fantastically insulting and just plain wrong. For a start, my cousin's best friend is a staunch Republican. He's also black. I guess you'd say he was what, "self-hating"? What about Condoleeza Rice, Alan Greenspan and Colin Powell? I'm not suggesting they demonstrate that the Republican Party are 100% non-racist, but are you suggesting that the KKK have appointed black and jewish people into prominent positions in their organisations?

Just because some Republicans are racist does not make centre-right politics inherently racist. No more than Farrakhan's support of Obama implies that the Democrats share his position.

handofdave wrote:
Perhaps what's different about here and over there is that most of the fascist-leaning types in the USA have learned to be more careful about their language in public forums. Amongst themselves they still retain the same old language and attitudes they always have had.

No. The fascist-leaning types in the USA are not careful about their language. Ever encounter a KKK member? How "careful" is StormFront magazine about it's language? Ever trawled some of the US neo-Nazi messageboards? Not much "care" being taken there.

handofdave wrote:
What's better... to have the fascists come right out and be who they are, without apology, or disguise their real intentions?

I've heard some black folks say that they'd rather live down south, where the racism is overt, and unmistakeable, than live up north, where it's still present, but masked. Know thine enemy.

Then those folks are not only black, they're idiots. They'd really rather live somewhere their kids will be openly abused and even risk being lynched for their skin colour, than somewhere their kids will face disguised racism? Do you really know people who've said that?

When I moved to London in the late 80s my Irish accent drew the occasional look of contempt. When my Dad spent time there in the 60s he passed guesthouses and pubs with signs saying "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish" on the door. What sort of masochistic Irishman wants to go back to that? And what sort of idiot suggests they'd rather live in that environment?

Subtle, disguised racism is still vile and needs to be opposed and eradicated. But it's a damn sight better than being in constant fear of being beaten up, or worse, because of your accent or skin colour.

handofdave wrote:
In other words, let the fascists make themselves known. That way there's no second guessing who's who. Don't let them go underground... drag them out into the light and show everyone what they're really about.

The fascists already have made themselves known. They are regularly interviewed in the media, get to make their own broadcasts on the BBC, have a website, literature, meetings you can attend, merchandise you can buy from their shop. They're not underground.

handofdave wrote:
Don't let them disguise themselves in more 'moderate' clothing.

What? You mean like invite them on mainstream political debate shows and give them the opportunity to appear more moderate than they are?

handofdave wrote:
I expect that the BNP is NOT going to get more support from Griffin being on this show.

Well, I expect you're wrong about that. They've already received a minor bump in the polls. But the problem is about the longterm legitimising of their position within politics and this programme was just one tiny step along that path. But make no mistake, however small it was, it was definitely a step.

handofdave wrote:
Instead, it's opened up a wider dialog about why the BNP is wrong. Just as it has right here on this forum.

We don't need a dialogue about the wrongness of the BNP. We simply need to examine the historical record of fascism and ethnic nationalism. Once you've done that, you realise that the best thing to do with fascists is oppose them at every turn and refuse to allow them to take even tiny steps towards legitimacy.
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Re: opinions on last night's question time (handofdave)
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