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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Oct 01, 2008, 16:18
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Before the Vice-Presidential announcements were made I was not willing to call on Americans to vote for Barack Obama. For lots of reasons, which I don't need to go into, I didn't think it would be a good idea to vote for him. That was not an endorsement of McCain of course. I just don't believe in voting for the lesser of two evils unless there's a massive gap between them. Certainly Obama's performance in the debate -- endorsing biofuels and name-checking Henry "war criminal" Kissinger for any reason other than to demand he should be handed over to The Hague for trial -- made me very uneasy. I see in Obama no more than a continuation of the corporate empire. And in McCain I see roughly the same thing. He's not a neocon like Bush, and the genuine differences between Obama and McCain have more to do with persona than politics. Yes Obama is the lesser of those two evils, but not by much. In those circumstances I've always believed in voting for a radical outsider even if they have no realistic chance of winning. Casting a vote shouldn't be like placing a bet on a horse-race, it should be about stating one's personal beliefs and nominating someone to speak in your stead. That it almost never works out that way is not a reason (in my idealistic eyes) to allow yourself to get tainted by a corrupt system. HOWEVER, during the Bush Vs Kerry campaign, I suggested that a Kerry vote would be the best idea. Because although Kerry was indeed just another corporate puppet, he was up against the neoconservative tendency which needed to be opposed. I saw McCain as being evidence that the Republican Party had ditched that ultra-right bible-thumping stance and returned to being merely the right-of-centre corporate party. Because whatever else you may say about him (and there's lots to say) McCain isn't in Dubya's born-again camp. But the more I see of Palin, the more I realise that electing McCain will put America within a statistically likely heart-attack of having an even dumber, even more vindictive and virulent religious neocon as president. That woman is incredibly dangerous and McCain is in his 70s. Not a good combination. So don't vote Obama because you think he'll bring hope and change and apple-pie back to the American dream. He won't. But do vote Obama to make sure Palin never gets anywhere near the reins of power. She's a menace and needs to be opposed.
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Edited Oct 01, 2008, 22:22
Oct 01, 2008, 19:27
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{quote="grufty jim"] But the more I see of Palin, the more I realise that electing McCain will put America within a statistically likely heart-attack of having an even dumber, even more vindictive and virulent religious neocon as president. That woman is incredibly dangerous and McCain is in his 70s. Not a good combination. So don't vote Obama because you think he'll bring hope and change and apple-pie back to the American dream. He won't. But do vote Obama to make sure Palin never gets anywhere near the reins of power. She's a menace and needs to be opposed.[/quote] That's exactly the conclusion I came to after reading two legnthy articles in the Independent on Sunday which outlined in detail her views on just about every issue she's made a public stand on. The fact that she's 100% anti-abortion - even in rape cases - and the fact that she supports the funding of church-based therapy courses in order to "straighten out" gay people was enough in itself to swing my vote. And that's just scratcing the surface. Not only that, she's both ignorant of foreign affairs - having never travelled outside of the US except for a one-day business trip to Germany - and extremely ambitious, which is also not a good combination, to put it mildly.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Edited Oct 01, 2008, 23:08
Oct 01, 2008, 20:26
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Popel Vooje wrote: I eat babies dipped in chocolate revisionism? Wha???
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Oct 01, 2008, 22:38
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PMM wrote: And there is of course her extreme ambitiousness to consider :) Eh? Wossee on about? (Snigger). Ain't revisionism wonderful. It's a good thing I'm not that ambitious.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Edited Oct 02, 2008, 04:07
Oct 02, 2008, 02:08
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It goes beyond a mere protest vote, Jim. Yes, Obama is part of the machine... there isn't a candidate who isn't. Elections are won by numbers- the US has a winner-take-all system- therefore, unless the electoral college system is completely overturned, we got what we got. I find it depressing that the US system of politics is virtually indistinguishable sometimes from professional American Football... but this is somehow deeply ingrained into the body politic... what the hell can anyone do. Plenty of brilliant people have tried to make the system less bipolar, to some effect. Nothing transpires at the mere will of idealists. The things Obama has going for him: He's a very smart man (polar opposite of what we've got now), He has the community organizing cred. Democrats have been woefully lame on that count while right-wing activism has been undeniably strong by comparison, perhaps this will tip the scales. He's uncorrupted by personal or professional scandal (we'd have heard about it by now). He gets a large demographic of formerly apathetic voters excited to participate in their own democracy (that by itself cannot be undervalued) He doesn't have an evil shadowlord (Cheney) who's really running the show by proxy, And he's a good communicator. He can explain complex issues without getting wonky. He doesn't resort to lowest-common-denominator apespeak, like GWB. This election is going to either be the nail in the coffin or, or the revival of the American left and center. It all comes down to whether Obama loses or wins. If he loses, America is fucked. If he wins, America might just pull thru and save itself from the #$%& mess that it's made of itself. I'm not a Pollyanna... I don't expect miracles, but I think you might be selling the man short by insisting that he's only good at keeping Sarah Palin out of the White House. American politics sometimes seems like a rigged game, but a landslide victory for Obama will prove that the back-room kingmakers are not pulling the strings this time. It's going to take EVERYONE who can't stand the way the Republicans have fucked it up to get out and vote, tho. If Obama gets a big enough margin, the bastards can't steal it, like they did the last two elections.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Oct 02, 2008, 09:09
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DyMvSEQ8jRk
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 02, 2008, 09:27
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"If he loses, America is fucked. If he wins, America might just pull thru and save itself from the #$%& mess that it's made of itself." What about the thought that the winner will inherit a poisoned chalice and will have to impose a level of austerity that will ensure their party becomes inelectable for a generation? McCain won't be able to afford to maintain all the tax cuts, Obama won't be able to deliver all his welfare programmes. People will be significantly worse off, which is all most of them vote about anyway.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 02, 2008, 12:34
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And? I'd love to see a more parliamentary system that could include the progressive parties. But this is America, and the hard reality of the situation is, it's either gonna be Obama/Biden or McCain/Palin. If we don't get a healthy enough margin for Obama, McCain's cronies in the Supreme Court will give it away to McCain, just like they did for Bush. It's all well and good to be politically active outside the two major parties in this country, but I don't see any chance that an independent can win on a general nationwide election. What they should be doing is exactly what the Republicans did... work from the ground up, with local and state elections. If they can get a toehold on that, they might have a shot at the White House. But you can't win the big tamale in this country by coming out of nowhere and espousing a left wing wish list. It's not wasted energy, but it's not going to get them anywhere unless they can climb a few more ladders in less prominent political contests. I wish them the best. But for now, let's just try to rid 1600 Penn. Ave. of the Republicans. That takes priority.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 02, 2008, 12:47
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Sorry if I get a bit defensive here, and maybe it's due to a certain weariness in seeing the smug rich boy's network take the country down a shit road, but there is no option at this point in time but to see to it that Obama wins this one. Yes indeed, he's got a lot of odious choices to make. But they'll be less odious than the Republicans, who, given the choice, would cut back every safety net we've got for anyone not making a million a year. America's been crippled by 8 years of Bush and even longer with a GOP dominated House and Senate... the Dems don't have a solid enough majority in Congress to forgo compromise. And let's talk about Supreme Court appointments. This is hugely important... if the GOP take the White House again, they will stack the friggin' court with more right-wing ideologues, effectively setting the stage for the overturning of whatever progressive legislation remains... This is the biggest danger. American politics can be argued and debated all day long, but at the end of it those ballots have GOT to be in favor of Obama, regardless of the potential for the Democrats to choke on the giant mess they will inherit.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Edited Oct 02, 2008, 13:38
Oct 02, 2008, 13:35
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Edit: Never mind. I just read your next post.
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