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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Mar 29, 2003, 20:17
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Being involved in the intense megalithic imagery of Iberian sites at the moment, and I'm briefly pondering backwards over the sites in the UK. I've realised I've never actually delved too deep into its geographic distribution there. How widespread is it? Is it found anywhere under the Pennines? And I don't mean just cupmarks, the occasional Stonehenge marks or Pictish symbolism, you know; I am looking for solar, human and figurative art on monuments or menhirs like the famous stuff in Brittany, Malta or Eire. Knowing of no proper Paleolithic cave art in Britain, I am trying to establish a continuum of tradition in art in the Mesolithic cultures of Europe, as the Channel was created around that time, severing the Isles from the Continent.
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fitzcoraldo 2709 posts |
Mar 29, 2003, 20:59
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Lo AQ There is rock art south of the pennines. It would be rather boring to list them all here so I'll send you some info by e-mail. I can recommend Richard Bradley's book "Rock Art and the Prehistory of Atlantic Europe". It was written in '97 so is not bang up to date on all the British sites but it provides a good overview of rock art from the Iberian peninsular to Scotland. If it's just British stuff you want check Stan Beckensall's book "British Prehistoric Rock Art" ....soon to be a database! Also if you check out this site http://groups.msn.com/rockartinthebritishlandscape/home.msnw Apart from being a good site, there are some excellent links to sites further afield. Happy hunting matey
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Mar 30, 2003, 06:55
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The most comprehensive study of passage tomb art has been done by Elizabeth Shea Twohig. I'll hunt out the name of her book later, but in it she studied Iberian, Breton and Irish passage grave art and did a contrast/compare.
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Mar 30, 2003, 11:07
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Got the name and title in a bibliography, dude! Thanks, I was actually inspired by it to find some more comparative information. And if you say so, I must get it.
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Mar 30, 2003, 11:27
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Thanks Fitz, I knew you'd come up with something good. I've seen the link, I look forward to the rest of the information! I'm also trying to establish links with earlier art with which I know there's a link!! Like the ochre used by those earlier humans, it was still used to paint objects and orthostats within passage graves afterwards. Let me know when Stan's book becomes a database (on the web I guess?). Question: have any idols ever been found at the entrances of Irish passage graves or is there any evidence ? You know the ones, rough decorated stones that have a particularly human shape. They used to do that in ancient Japan too, even the early Romans kept little statues of their ancestors.
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fitzcoraldo 2709 posts |
Mar 30, 2003, 22:06
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There is a debate in the Rock art world around whether or not British abstract art predates passage grave art. Therefore if this was the case, abstract art could be your link to the cave art of the paleaolithic. Of course different cultures develop different forms of expression of their beliefs. Our ancestors seemed to have gone down the road of abstract symbols, but then I am applying a modern view point to something I haven't a hope of fully understanding. I see British prehistoric rock art as a lost language which I don't think we will ever truely recover. As for sculptured artifacts, they are extremely rare ( I won't say none existant because I don't know that as a fact) but my personal theory is that everything that these people wanted to express about their beliefs was done through altering the landscape using earth, stone and wood with the circle as the key to everything. Today I was fortunate enough to visit a reconstructed henge monument (Maelmin in Northumbria), we were shown around the henge by the archaeologist, Clive Waddington, who had built it based upon a nearby excavated henge. One thing that struck me was the carving of the timber posts to resemble totems, there was no evidence that this had been done on the original but it definitely 'felt right'.
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Chris Collyer 849 posts |
Mar 30, 2003, 22:48
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Have you seen this carving on Askwith Moor? I was looking for it today but had an 'incident' with some sheep so I didn't find it. I'm not sure whether it represents a human figure carrying another figure - I've heard it refered to a holding a rainbow or a hunter with a bow. http://www.alkelda.f9.co.uk/index.htm -Chris
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Mar 30, 2003, 23:16
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Well, they did find these at Knowth http://www.megalithomania.com/show_site.php?site_id=0&image=1052 The inset is an extremely phallic thing. It was discovered at the entrance to one of the passages in an oval setting of quartz stones. There was a broken, plain version of this found in a similar position at Newgrange. At a few Irish sites some tablets similar to the Iberian ones have been found, but surprisingly they are more associated with court tombs, which predate passage tombs .... hhhmmm It has been suggested that the tombs at Carrowkeel could have been painted. There has never been any proof found of this, but the theory was proposed because the limstone there is totally unsuited to carved decoration. Jury's out on that one. Personally I like the Mr & Mrs Stone outside the one passage at Knowth ... seen here being propostitioned my one Holy McGrail <cough> http://www.megalithomania.com/show_site.php?site_id=0&image=1054
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Annexus Quam 926 posts |
Mar 30, 2003, 23:18
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Well, abstract and figurative art (what you call passage grave art) is precisely contemporary according to the pioneering studies being done here. As with the wrong belief that big passage graves predated big ones, it used to be thought that one predated the other. Funnily enough, cave art was quite a realistic thing (remember the archaeologists thought it couldn't have possibly been done by troglodytes and how many 'believers' died in penury for that) whereas much of the Neolithic has 'abstract' signs (zig zags, lozenges and other symbols). Many of the passage graves have mostly abstract stuff (though what we call abstract can be a picture we cannot discern) though it also includes snakes, people and later weapons, including slightly sculptured stones. That they did not transform 'everything' was deliberate, as they were clearly capable of that and more. I believe they chose certain abstract motifs for some sites/stones as they chose different KINDS of stone on purpose, even in the same grave, say, making up the orthostats that close the main chamber. The idols are quite common by the way, and I've seen loads. I am actually transfixed by some of the designs on some slate plates and I'd like to print them (I'll send some, eh... annexed to you). In all, nothing resembles the 'naturalism' of the troglodytes during the Paleolithic. But I believe there is a certain 'code' since many motifs are common (like the solar eyes). Cupmarks are extremely common everywhere and concentric circles are quite a thing in other areas. I'll let you know when I have further checked those websites for further clues afield (Brittany and Northumbria) so as to get a global picture.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Mar 30, 2003, 23:25
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One point of interest ... Newgrange is predominantly 'Angular' (lozenges & zig-zags etc) and Knowth is mainly 'curvy'. Knowth is an equinox site (passages face due east & due west) whereas Newgrange is a Winter Solstice site. Just thought I'd mention it.
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