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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Monitoring the Staffordshire Hoard field |
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 28, 2019, 08:03
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https://heritageaction.wordpress.com/2019/08/28/monitoring-the-staffordshire-hoard-field/
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Howburn Digger 986 posts |
Aug 30, 2019, 07:45
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Periodic ploughing will greatly assist the churning up of the Saxon Scrap Metal and litter. Will HA activists (5th Battalion Neighbourhood Watch Saxon Scrap Observation Corps) simply be looking at the chunks from over the fence oor will these stellar sould slip through the wire and maybe lift a chunk of the glistening metalwork and selflessly take it to the recycling? Do we have full trust in these Observers? What are their credentials? Who will vet them? Or will one Observer be "watching" while a second slips through the wire to retrieve scrap for their own ends? Who will watch The Watchers?
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 30, 2019, 08:53
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Dunno about the rest but I certainly use the campaign as a cover for nighthawking. Well spotted.
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Howburn Digger 986 posts |
Aug 30, 2019, 14:54
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Cometh the hour - Cometh The State. Heritage Action..."From the moment you become aware you have found a significant hoard you should treat it as what it is – State Property" Hey? Do we in "Britain" live in a "State" or are HA referring to The Crown Estate? I think HA are referring to the latter. There is no provision for protecting any lost scrap metal (Saxon, Roman or N. E. Other) under any "State Law" of England which relates to the Crown Estate or any imaginary organisation called "The State" whose notional existence cannot be defined, understood or respected. Under the Treaties of Union of 1706 and 1707, English law was suspended beyond 1st May 1707. Provision was made for the continuance of only the Scottish canon of law beyond that date. In constitutional terms English Law died along with the Kingdom of England in 1707. I'll repeat that. English Law died along with the Kingdom of England in 1707. Heritage Actions wish to retain the hoard for the State, would seem to rely in something which they might call English Law (extinct since 1707) but would really be some vaguely imagined "United Kingdom" law as it applies South of the Scottish Border. The weakness with this position would seem to be that United Kingdom (inexplicably in the singular) law only came into being with the annexation of Ireland in 1800 and thus is way too late to have any relevance to any imaginary left-overs of the hoard in question. Can Heritage Action advise us all of the creation of any specific document purporting to affirm ownership of the left-overs of the Staffordshire Hoard by the Crown in Parliament since the Annexation of Ireland in 1800? (clue- there is no such document) I would also draw to HA's attention the fact that there was a civil war in England in the 17th century which resulted in the 1689 Bill of Rights, a constitutional re-shuffle which left the Crown of England only what they called a 'constitutional monarch', that is devoid of all executive power and left with only a symbolic courtesy in the form of a technical right to veto. Under this arrangement executive power passed to the parliament at Westminster, giving birth to the English principle of 'parliamentary supremacy'. This constitutional revolution did not happen in Scotland where the principle of 'popular sovereignty' prevails. Generally speaking, this distinction is neither understood or respected in England and Wales but when it comes to conveying property it becomes important to be aware of the discrete nature of the systems. Therefore any Crown Sovereignty and Crown Estate claim to any imaginary leftovers of the Staffordshire Hoard can only rightfully be asserted by the Scottish Crown Estate. So Heritage Action... You really want these fairly secret organistations (eg. 5th Battalion Neighbourhood Watch Saxon Scrap Observation Corps) to report to The State any suspected ground disturbances? The State are bound to help. I'd sooner trust the Danebury Metal Detecting Club and the Mudsharks.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 30, 2019, 16:17
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Well, while we're dissecting the piece, it isn't State property (if it was State property, which you've shown it wasn't) until identified as "treasure", as which point it still wouldn't be State property either side of the border but you have to talk in simplistic ways in order to get through to people that they really should stop digging once they suspect it falls under the Treasure Act. One of the most frequent responses to posting a link on a detecting forum is "too long for me M8." BTW my brother in law was from Edinburgh. ;)
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Howburn Digger 986 posts |
Aug 30, 2019, 18:30
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nigelswift wrote: Well, while we're dissecting the piece, it isn't State property (if it was State property, which you've shown it wasn't) until identified as "treasure", as which point it still wouldn't be State property either side of the border but you have to talk in simplistic ways in order to get through to people that they really should stop digging once they suspect it falls under the Treasure Act. One of the most frequent responses to posting a link on a detecting forum is "too long for me M8." BTW my brother in law was from Edinburgh. ;) Which "State"? Which "Treasure Act"? If I am digging spuds outta my tattie patch and gold Coin after gold coin comes spilling out from under my Arran Pilots, I will not be stopping the hauling of the bullion to phone up the "State" under any circumstances. Any "State" which launches air strikes on innocent civilians, sells Uranium enriched weapons to poison the lands of innocent people and removes hard-won benefits from its disabled and unemployed citizens doesn't deserve the gold from my tattie patch. Remember the handing over of the "Brexit-Ferry Contract" to a couple of City Bumturds by "The State"? https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/01/chris-grayling-cancels-ferry-contracts-at-extra-50m-cost-to-taxpayers-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/09/government-cancels-brexit-ferry-contract-with-no-ship-firm Cometh the hour - Cometh The State. As for trusting the members of the 5th Battalion Neighbourhood Watch Saxon Scrap Observation Corps... don't make me laugh! Anyway there was a real clear message in the "Detectorists" series. Leave shiny things on a field and Magpies will take them and hide them up trees. Could take centuries for them to cascade back down in a high wind. Pick it up and put it in your pocket... you'd be a fool not to.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 30, 2019, 20:02
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Well, in Scotland all good stuff has to be declared whereas in England and Wales only some does. Scotland seems to be more under the jackboot than the South. BTW the Crosby Garrett Helmet fell through the regulatory net and so stayed in private hands, largely out of the gaze of the public and the scientists. You pays yer money, cultural jackboot or cultural blinkers.
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Howburn Digger 986 posts |
Aug 31, 2019, 10:25
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nigelswift wrote: Well, in Scotland all good stuff has to be declared whereas in England and Wales only some does. Scotland seems to be more under the jackboot than the South. BTW the Crosby Garrett Helmet fell through the regulatory net and so stayed in private hands, largely out of the gaze of the public and the scientists. You pays yer money, cultural jackboot or cultural blinkers. The Crosby Garret Helmet didn't fall through any regulatory net. The Tollie House Museum just couldn't afford to buy it. They didn't have enough money. A rich person did. That is the Free Market under which all are forced to live or exist. As I pointed out... the Crown in Scotland is not a "constitutional monarchy" but holds "popular sovereignty". There is an applicable legal difference when it comes to "State" (ie. Crown Estate) claims on property (ie. relics found lying in the ground). It is that simple. It is what returned the capstone of the cesspit from Scone Abbey to Scotland in 1996 after 800-odd years. I watched Jeffrey Epstein's friend and "youngster appreciator", Prince Andrew escort the capstone back up the Royal Mile to where it (nearly) came from. That was done after a very precise legal campaign dealing with the theft ("reset") of stolen goods ("the Stone of Destiny") levelled at Queen Elizabeth ("The Crown") and the "United Kingdom" (strangely singular). They didn't have a leg to stand on. In Scotland there is a jackboot - but often we are wearing them. "Popular Sovereignty" means something constitutionally... I am glad that was understood.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 31, 2019, 11:35
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The helmet didn't fall through any regulatory net?!!! It didn't fall under the Treasure Act, so didn't need to be reported, so first was hurriedly sent to London and "restored" to increase saleability, badly, thus destroying scientific evidence. Fall through a loophole it certainly did. Incidentally, DID it come from Crosby Garrett at all? There is doubt. Search Crosby Garrett on Looting Matters. https://lootingmatters.blogspot.com See this incidentally https://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/2014/02/legal-fibbery-and-so-called-crosby.html
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Howburn Digger 986 posts |
Sep 01, 2019, 12:49
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nigelswift wrote: The helmet didn't fall through any regulatory net?!!! It didn't fall under the Treasure Act, so didn't need to be reported, so first was hurriedly sent to London and "restored" to increase saleability, badly, thus destroying scientific evidence. Fall through a loophole it certainly did. Incidentally, DID it come from Crosby Garrett at all? There is doubt. Search Crosby Garrett on Looting Matters. https://lootingmatters.blogspot.com See this incidentally https://lootingmatters.blogspot.com/2014/02/legal-fibbery-and-so-called-crosby.html It fell through nothing. It was found. In the ground. The English Law which might have had some relevance didn't apply to it. It was sold to the highest bidder. The Tollie House Museum didn't have enough money. A rich person got it instead. Personally I think the loss of the helmet into private hands was a pity as I love Roman stuff. Their repeated incursions, temporary occupations and regular attempts at democide and genocide in Scotland are an endless fascination to me. A Caledonian Bear and many Caledonian captives were some of the amusements at the opening of the Flavian Amphitheatre (Coliseum) in AD 80. The Newstead helmet and masks are in NMS. Lovely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newstead_Helmet
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