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Monganaut 2375 posts |
Edited Jul 22, 2019, 02:41
Jul 22, 2019, 01:40
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Currently reading an old book by a guy called Tim Severin wherein he recreates/ proves that the voyage of Ulysses was possible (it's a fascinating book, very readable..full of groovy factoids, archaeology etc... available for a few quid on ebay etc..). https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/454845.The_Ulysses_Voyage Any how, went looking on youtwat to see if there was a TV series of said voyage. Sadly there wasn't, but there was an earlier docu (1985) consisting of an voyage he did in the same vessel ARGO (obvs!) recreating the Jason/ Golden Fleece voyage...anyhow, to get to the point...the progs are here if you fancy a butchers....It's called Voyage of Heroes... 1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG4YSt9I7Ag 2.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uImzQG6axhQ 3.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo2Bd4TAePs 4.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7c2_YD3WBw What I hadn't realised about the Argonauts story was that the fleece was actually recovered (stolen) from modern day Georgia, I always imagined it was in the Med somewhere. No great insights into Bronze Age sea faring... (Gotta say, it's a great looking boat 10 sets of oars, massive sail, no keel). He did the tried and tested coastal hug for the most part, but the fact that he and his brave crew of amateurs made it makes him/them a hero's in my eyes, and showed what a slog it would/could have been using these sea lanes. He also went on to recreate the voyage of Sinbad and a few others too. He first 'historical' voyage was the Brendan Voyage, crossing the Atlantic in a boat made of wood and leather (feckin' legend!).
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Zariadris 286 posts |
Jul 22, 2019, 06:53
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Hey Monganaut, Yes, I'm in that part of the world, and I can attest to how proud Georgians are of being the home of ancient Colchis on the Black Sea coast. I've visited that region - roughly around the modern port town of Batumi and the tourist resorts of Kobuleti. An interesting connection between the Bronze Age monoliths of Armenia known as dragon-stones (vishaps), which depict the hide of a horned animal carved upon them, to the Golden Fleece myth has recently been advanced by several Armenian academics. Here is a summary of a paper by Armen Petrosyan called The legend of the Golden Fleece and stone vishaps: "It is known that during Hattian-Hittite rituals ?eeces were hung upon trees. This ritual corresponds to Greek myth of the Golden Fleece. ?he Argonauts sailed to Colchis to get the Golden Fleece which was hung there on an oak-tree and was guarded by the dragon. The elements of this legend – the ?eece upon the tree and the dragon – are comparable with the iconography of the stone vishaps as well as with rituals and myths which are reconstructed from these elements. "The names of the king of Colchis Aietes and his daughter Medea, as well as the legends about them, ?nd their parallels in the names and myths of Yayati and his daughter Madhavi (India), and Eochaid and his daughter Medb (Ireland). It means that this myth is of Indo-European origin. "The original goal of the Argonauts was called Aia, which later was equated with Colchis. Aia, most probably, can be identi?ed with the land Hayasa of the Hittite sources, located in the same area. The Indo-European char-acter of the legends and the names of Aia suggest the signi?cant role of Indo-European ethnic element within the ancient population of Hayasa. The land Diauhi of the Urartian sources historically followed Hayasa in the same territory, and itself was followed by the Armenian province of Tayk. The latter is one of major centers of concentration of vishap stones. Most probably, the legend of the Argonauts re?ected not only the Hattian-Hittite ritual, but also a di?erent tradition peculiar to the Armenian Highland (where it was customary to hang upon the sacri?cial stele not a sheepskin, but a bull hide)."
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Zariadris 286 posts |
Jul 22, 2019, 07:03
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And here is another account of the phenomenon: a summary of an article called Golden Fleece - vishap: from myth to archaeology by Arsen Bobokhyan and Aram Gevorgyan: "The territory of Armenia and neighboring culturally-related Southern Caucasian regions are characterized by active cultural interactions with the Aegean world during the period of the Middle Bronze Age (XXIV-XVI centuries BC) and partially during the Late Bronze Age (XVI-XIII centuries BC). "Some scholars mention real historical and economical presuppositions in ancient myths, and consider that these relations are also re?ected in the legend about the Golden Fleece or Argonauts, which is seen as an expres-sion of economical relations (gold and wool trade) in the legend. The ?eece symbolizes the method of washing alluvial gold using a ram hide. "On the other hand, some scholars have already paid attention to the similarity of one peculiarity of the Golden Fleece story with the iconography of vishaps. The matter concerns the ?eece/hide of the animal (in Greek myth - a ram, in the case of vishaps - a bull or a ram) which was on the tree/stele. If this comparison has a ground, an interesting chain can be created which gives an opportunity to discuss the abovementioned problem on a more generalized historical-archaeological basis. These links are reinforced by other archaeological data and written sources that are taken on one the hand from Anatolian, Mesopotamian and the Aegean and on the other hand from Caucasian cultural worlds." This and the preceding synopsis are taken from THE VISHAP STONE STELAE, Editors Armen Petrosyan, Arsen Bobokhyan, «GITUTYUN» PUBLISHING HOUSE YEREVAN 2015
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Monganaut 2375 posts |
Edited Jul 22, 2019, 12:14
Jul 22, 2019, 12:04
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Hey, thanks for that fascinating summery of the regions links to the Argonauts, trade and traditions. I'd not heard of the Vishap stones...will have to google for some images. During the Roman period, the bull cult of Mithras was an important deity for many soldiers (they found remains of a Mithraeum up on Hadrians Wall, as well as one in London) and is thought to have beein imported from the eastern regions, I think Persia/Syria was mentioned, but I guess, places like Armenia/Georgia etc could have carried out similar bull worshipping as well. I know the bull was important religiously to the Minoans as well, and of course, there is still bull running in Spain. I guess, much like bronze/iron age western Europe, hides fleeces and meat/bones are all important traded commodities. In the historical overview of Tim Severin's book (and in The Odyssey) wine seems almost as important as everything else. I'm presupposing it's for the same reasons beer was important to many early cultures being a safe source of drinkable liquid. It's mentioned that in ancient times wine was mixed with water, so taken differently to how most Europeans quoff it these days. Also, the black wine of the Thracian region seemed to be especially valued at the time, being very potent (it was what the put the cyclops to sleep with)...so maybe not so different to us these days after all :) At one point during the recreated voyage, the Argo crew come across black beaches so rich in iron/ iron ore that the sand can be picked up with a magnet, even after all this time. Tim Severin's hypothesis is that some of the earliest iron smelting and export were probably important parts of this particular trade route too.
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Zariadris 286 posts |
Jul 22, 2019, 16:58
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Hey Monganaut, Thanks as usual for the informative posts and replies. I have a book chapter on vishaps to be published as part of a monograph on the subject later this summer with lots of illustrations which I can send your way when ready. And by the way, I thanked you - and this here forum - in my acknowledgements for the help you provided. All those links/posts you put up some months ago regarding Neolithic seafaring, migrations, etc. were inspiring and really invaluable in my research. Cheers. I'll look forward to watching the film you linked to. Your thoughts on ancient trade routes and wares are very interesting. Indeed, people and goods were moving about in remote prehistory in ways most don't realize. The portion of what would become the silk road that runs through Armenia passes by some key Bronze Age megalithic sites, which recalls Burl's observations of stone circles in Britain appearing along the routes of the ax trade. Goods - and ideas - got around. With regards to wine and spirits, one of the earliest references to beer drinking is mentioned in the 5th century by Xenophon in his Anabasis, when the retreating Greeks were obliged to winter in Armenia among the locals who lived in subterranean dwellings. He describes local Armenian beer ("barley wine") thus: "There were stored wheat, barley, vegetables, and barley wine in the craters (clay pots). In upper level of vessels with the edges in the wine floated barley, and there was stuck a reed, large and small sizes and who wanted to drink, had to take a reed in his mouth and pull it through the wine. Not mixed with water, the wine was very strong, but for local people it was a very pleasant drink" Bottoms Up!
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spencer 3071 posts |
Jul 22, 2019, 19:38
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There was news in the last fortnight of a discovery of a religious complex on an island which is regarded as being the origin of Greece. The building/s were covered with white marble not available on that island which had to be transported from another by boat. It is estimated that it took around 10000 trips. That the people from those parts c4000bc were not very accomplished seafarers is beyond doubt. Sorry can't do link at mo, I think it was a Cambridge Uni dig tho.
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Monganaut 2375 posts |
Edited Jul 22, 2019, 20:46
Jul 22, 2019, 20:27
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[quote="Zariadris" Thanks as usual for the informative posts and replies. I have a book chapter on vishaps to be published as part of a monograph on the subject later this summer with lots of illustrations which I can send your way when ready. And by the way, I thanked you - and this here forum - in my acknowledgements for the help you provided. All those links/posts you put up some months ago regarding Neolithic seafaring, migrations, etc. were inspiring and really invaluable in my research. Cheers.[/quote] Hey, you're more than welcome Zariadris. I'm no expert (far from it) so I'm glad that some of the links proved useful to you :) Most posters on MA are in the UK, so its great to have someone further afield filling in 'the holes' from another region/ point of view. That's what HH is all about, sharing our interests. Look forward to seeing some of those lovely sounding illustrations. Apparently the 'Fleece' taken by Jason was protected by serpents, which I always took to be pits of snakes etc... but your mention of the Vishap's had me googling. Looks like many of the stele had bulls, sheep and fish as common monolith inscriptions, with serpents cropping up on a significant amount too. Maybe those were the 'serpents' protecting the fleece? Also, they seem to be set up in breathtaking locations. Beautiful lakes and mountain regions...you're a lucky guy to get to visit these amazing places :) My current obsession is Maltese megalithic sites and culture. So many of these bear a striking resemblance to sites in the UK. Again bull worship is a big thing...would love to get to the bottom of why these bull cults were so prevalent in early societies ...... remarkably the last Auroch only died out in 1627 in Poland https://museum-of-artifacts.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-horn-of-last-aurochs-bull-which.html . Funnily enough, I saw an article online today that stated that culture may have come to an end due to a massive volcanic eruption ... http://nautil.us/blog/why-a-thriving-civilization-in-malta-collapsed-4000-years-ago
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Monganaut 2375 posts |
Edited Jul 22, 2019, 20:58
Jul 22, 2019, 20:42
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I'll dig it out fer a mooch, thanks! edit. Is this the place... https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/origins-greek-civilization-found-0012266 https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/jewel-aegean-greeks-used-advanced-engineering-create-monumental-island-021800
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spencer 3071 posts |
Jul 23, 2019, 10:11
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Ar
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tomatoman 118 posts |
Jul 23, 2019, 15:30
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As soon as I saw "Tim Severin", I thought Brendan, from way back. I checked Wiki and see he's led an AMAZING life of exploration. A true giant.
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