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A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
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Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 12:12
stonefree wrote:


Can I jump in again here and ask if you consider it a tomb at all.. or that a tomb is just part of it?

If just part of it, then what role do your findings play with regard to the remains that would have been in the chamber or intended to be in the chamber?

I think those are a couple of sensible questions that shouldn't create much of a problem answering.[/quote]


Whether or not the quoit was ever used as a tomb is not of any specific relevance to our research at this point. It may well become relevant at some later stage, when and if we are able to conduct archeological surveys underneath the fallen stone 7.

Our ongoing investigations and observations with regard to Solar, Lunar and Stellar alignments, and to the optical dynamics of light and shade on nearly all of the surfaces, both inner and outer, would almost certainly preclude the likelihood of the quoit having been constructed 'primarily' for funereal purposes. This would have necessitated open aspects of the structure being covered to prevent incursions and this would also have rendered the entire structure unuseable for the purposes we propose.[/quote]

Does the 'fallen' sloping stone and the gap supposedly left by it not effect the light diffusion and 'patterns' observed? Would they be different if the gap was filled and the fallen stone not there?
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 12:18
stonefree wrote:
Whether or not the quoit was ever used as a tomb is not of any specific relevance to our research at this point. It may well become relevant at some later stage, when and if we are able to conduct archeological surveys underneath the fallen stone 7.

Our ongoing investigations and observations with regard to Solar, Lunar and Stellar alignments, and to the optical dynamics of light and shade on nearly all of the surfaces, both inner and outer, would almost certainly preclude the likelihood of the quoit having been constructed 'primarily' for funereal purposes. This would have necessitated open aspects of the structure being covered to prevent incursions and this would also have rendered the entire structure unuseable for the purposes we propose.


I find that a bit confusing. You've got the logic backwards haven't you? Aren't you saying it can't have been built for funereal purposes because our theories wouldn't be valid if it was?

From what you say, far from being of no relevance at this point, isn't whether or not it was built for funereal purposes an essential sine qua non to be considered before you propose anything that would be precluded if it was?
stonefree
68 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 12:48
Rhiannon wrote:
Also, do you think all structures like this have got similar non-tomb intentions? So if you went to, say, St Lythans (only because that's somewhere I've been) that to me looks superficially similar, would you expect to find the same clues to support your Trevethy theories? That would help your argument would it not.

You'll have to excuse me for not knowing exactly what clues you're talking about because the other thread got a bit too muddy.

I think you mentioned some photos you'd taken of how the light fell on particular parts of the stone. And how the stones were aligned with..

Specifics, that's what'll convince people a bit more. And comparisons with other places?



Thanks Rhiannon,
I don't think all similar structures had the same extent of astronomical functions, if they had any at all. Some were possibly just tombs.
Any open structure will have interplays of light and shade going on, but determining intent is crucial and at Trethevy it can be seen that various surface features have been 'worked' quite precisely for such purposes.

Here are two photographs, the first one taken 15 mins before 'local' noon and the second taken at exactly local noon (13.19 p.m. allowing for BST and 4.2 degrees west of Greenwich.) You can clearly see how the capstone shadow moves down to fold across the notch on stone 6 and then a 'needle' of light strikes out halfway down the main rear upright (stone 2) and starts to move upwards towards the cutout 'door'.

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/img_fullsize/95729.jpg

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/img_fullsize/95728.jpg
stonefree
68 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 13:05
[/quote]

Does the 'fallen' sloping stone and the gap supposedly left by it not effect the light diffusion and 'patterns' observed? Would they be different if the gap was filled and the fallen stone not there?[/quote]


It certainly does affect some of the observations, partly because stone 7 would have acted as a 'projection surface' for the light at sunrise coming through different apertures and moving across and down at different rates. This may have played a part in determining the furthest point of the Sunrise at Summer Solstice. It would also have created very accurate gaps, possibly for determining the Sun's furthest setting point at Winter Solstice (although it would need putting back up to demonstrate this!)

We believe Trethevy Quoit may be unique in having accurate alignments at both Solstices and possibly the equinoxes as well.
stonefree
68 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 13:10
nigelswift wrote:
stonefree wrote:
Whether or not the quoit was ever used as a tomb is not of any specific relevance to our research at this point. It may well become relevant at some later stage, when and if we are able to conduct archeological surveys underneath the fallen stone 7.

Our ongoing investigations and observations with regard to Solar, Lunar and Stellar alignments, and to the optical dynamics of light and shade on nearly all of the surfaces, both inner and outer, would almost certainly preclude the likelihood of the quoit having been constructed 'primarily' for funereal purposes. This would have necessitated open aspects of the structure being covered to prevent incursions and this would also have rendered the entire structure unuseable for the purposes we propose.


I find that a bit confusing. You've got the logic backwards haven't you? Aren't you saying it can't have been built for funereal purposes because our theories wouldn't be valid if it was?

From what you say, far from being of no relevance at this point, isn't whether or not it was built for funereal purposes an essential sine qua non to be considered before you propose anything that would be precluded if it was?



I think the logic of saying these things couldn't have happened because it was completely covered is the backwards logic!
If they happen as intentionally and accurately as we are proposing then it would preclude it having been built 'primarily' for burials.
Rhiannon
5291 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 13:20
The notch is nice. But it doesn't point to it at exactly midday, isn't that more what you'd expect if it was being used (being chipped out at great effort) for a deliberate marker, not at quarter to? At midday nothing particularly obvious seems to be happening. I would say 'well quarter to is near enough' but the patterns obviously change quite a bit between quarter to and noon?

just an observation.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 14:17
Rhiannon wrote:
The notch is nice. But it doesn't point to it at exactly midday, isn't that more what you'd expect if it was being used (being chipped out at great effort) for a deliberate marker, not at quarter to? At midday nothing particularly obvious seems to be happening. I would say 'well quarter to is near enough' but the patterns obviously change quite a bit between quarter to and noon?

just an observation.


Rhiannon,
If the Closure Stone was upright instead of being over 21" out of kilter like it is, the 'reading' would have been entirely different. I find it very difficult to believe that this most important and centralising orthostat was originally set in so much out of upright. In fact I know it wasn't because it has moved since last year! Look aound the remaining structure carefully and see how it is out of shape. Look at just the photos shown to see how the Capstone is way off centre to the main orthostat now and lurches badly to the left. I'll post a photo of the rear of the structure shortly to show you what I mean.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 14:50
Sanctuary wrote:
Rhiannon wrote:
The notch is nice. But it doesn't point to it at exactly midday, isn't that more what you'd expect if it was being used (being chipped out at great effort) for a deliberate marker, not at quarter to? At midday nothing particularly obvious seems to be happening. I would say 'well quarter to is near enough' but the patterns obviously change quite a bit between quarter to and noon?

just an observation.


Rhiannon,
If the Closure Stone was upright instead of being over 21" out of kilter like it is, the 'reading' would have been entirely different. I find it very difficult to believe that this most important and centralising orthostat was originally set in so much out of upright. In fact I know it wasn't because it has moved since last year! Look aound the remaining structure carefully and see how it is out of shape. Look at just the photos shown to see how the Capstone is way off centre to the main orthostat now and lurches badly to the left. I'll post a photo of the rear of the structure shortly to show you what I mean.


Here it is Rhiannon,
The rear right-hand stone (in my opinion) is not the original, that is elsewhere and patently obvious where to my mind. I believe that rear right stone to be the rear closure as it is the only one that fits. Can't say any more at this moment as it's part of my private research which is ongoing but I have them all sorted now I believe. To gauge the degree of sideways tilt on the Capstone just look at the level line of the ridge on the house. By replacing the uprights in the correct order you get a level sideways plane which would make modern 'readings' completely adrift from what you get today. That's my opinion anyway. I have no doubt in my mind that Trethevy Quoit has undergone drastic 'surgery' during the 5,000 years+ it has stood there. But as always nothing can be proven 100% so we have to rely on a bit of common sense taking over. This is a chambered tomb we are looking at, nothing else.
On saying that there is no reason why somebody should not come along after the build and put forward other ideas but in the main they will be incidental and only work for some of the claim not all.
http://i26.servimg.com/u/f26/16/16/85/69/p1010013.jpg
stonefree
68 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 15:31
Rhiannon wrote:
The notch is nice. But it doesn't point to it at exactly midday, isn't that more what you'd expect if it was being used (being chipped out at great effort) for a deliberate marker, not at quarter to? At midday nothing particularly obvious seems to be happening. I would say 'well quarter to is near enough' but the patterns obviously change quite a bit between quarter to and noon?

just an observation.



Local noon is when the sun reaches it's highest point daily, rather than any fixed 'time' of day set at the Greenwich Meridian.
The sun reaches it's zenith at a different time at any given location depending on how far east or west of this 'arbitrary' datum line.

I hope that makes it clearer.
Resonox
604 posts

Re: A clean slate? (or should that be granite?)
May 02, 2011, 15:36
A lot is being made of the "hole"...one poster, in the other thread alluded to it being for the erection of a maypole(yes I know it was a tongue in cheek remark)...but it might not be that far off the mark....perhaps(and only perhaps) the hole was used as an aid to building....by inserting a sturdy lever-style piece of wood(this could explain what was described as a "squircle" too as this would give a good grip of a piece of timber) for aiding in raising the slab and moving it into and holding it in position until the wall structure was fully stabilised...has anyone considered a simplistic theory??
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