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Unsung Forum » Rock's Greatest Improvisers |
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Edited Dec 17, 2007, 18:12
Dec 17, 2007, 18:05
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I have to agree that there's very little "improvisation" in any of those proggy bands you mention -- just cuz VDGG has a sax player doesn't mean everything wasn't composed beforehand. Zappa did improvise a lot, but in a very structured "big band jazz" way (soloists taking turns in the spotlight.) So I'm not sure that counts either! [Zappa digression: in JRS Cope compares Kimio Mizutani's "A Path Through Haze" to "Hot Rats", which I totally do not get. He called Rats a "supersession album", which it's not -- in fact Rats was the FIRST 16-track recording ever released. It's INSANELY detailed & composed, with Ian Underwood overdubbing as many as a dozen parts per song, and every bar arranged & overseen by FZ. Not much "improvising" there!!] An individual's ability to solo, and the fact that the rest of the band can keep a riff going indefinitely (ala Cream) does not "improvisation" make. That's called "wanking", something completely different! Any 15 ninute version of "Spoonful" is pretty predictably the same as every other version -- the fact Clapton plays his canned licks in a different order each night doesn't really make it "improvised." Other than The Dead and a few others (well, the whole "jam band movement" really) I don't think there is much "improvisation" in rock generally, at least not since the first half of the 70's. The key here is, the GROUP is improvising, not just providing a framework for a soloist to show off in. You want true improv rock, try Nihilist Spasm Band or The Godz first record!
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Five 960 posts |
Dec 17, 2007, 19:14
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Re: Zappa I was thinking more of Mothers right before they broke up when he sort of improv-conducted them through time-changes and such... His later guitar solos are nice that way also, though the band-soloist dichotomy is a drag Re: jambands, largely not do much for me anymore (though there was some good stuff at one time) if you mean the east coast US ones, and the west coast def seems to be different... Critters Buggin or Crack Sabbath or Siamese though none really counts as Rock I guess except here & there or parts of a Kinski show (that can be very intensely cool) or actually, how about Sun City Girls? I have done my best to implement quality improvising rock bands with mixed results, mostly in Seattle, but can't say it's among the best anything ever, for sure
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sakedelic 936 posts |
Dec 17, 2007, 19:43
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I think, to a great degree, Rock music and improvisation are inherently antithetical. If you are improvising, you can't have a rocking beat, a repetitive riff, a bassline that compliments the beat and the riff, etc. To rock, you really need stuff mostly planned. If you're Rocking, you can't stray too far from the beat. Can & VU both had repetitive rhythms, riffs & basslines which they played with in an improvisational/situational way, but perhaps not significantly more so than The Rolling Stones when you get down to it. Nihilist Spasm Band made noise. They did not rock. The Grateful Dead made limpid musical wallpaper, they certainly did not rock. Zappa was a control freak composer, and may have rocked slightly more than he improvised, but what he did most was funky fusion wank.
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coldrumhead 608 posts |
Edited Dec 17, 2007, 20:12
Dec 17, 2007, 19:46
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I 'm a bit partial to Richard Thompson live stuff like Calvary Cross...
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Stevo 6664 posts |
Dec 17, 2007, 21:08
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IanB wrote: . As do the Fairports when Swarb and Richard Thompson were in their pomp and Mattacks was driving the thing with his unique jazz/ folk playing. Just point out that a RAH '69 gig claimed to be the Liege & Lief debut performance cropped up on Dime over the weekend. As did 2 Albion Country Band sets from '72. Wouldn't limit RT to his time with Fairports I have some wild solo stuff by him. Stevo
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Dec 17, 2007, 23:56
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Exactly, the "improvisor" in all that wacky Mothers stuff was Zappa-the-conductor. The other guys in the band were strictly following orders! Zappa as "director on stage" was always part of their dynamic, most obviously on the "Ahead of Their Time" CD where he's literally directing a "play" on stage dressed like an old-time movie producer complete with megaphone. The liner notes/libretto to "Civilization Phaze III" also describe action to be performed on stage during the music, and there is a character "FZ" who stands at the top of the stage periodically giving orders through a megaphone! Since he was dying as he composed it, apparently he intended for some actor to wear a costume as this character (I picture a "foam rubber giant nose & moustache" outfit!) I think his basic metaphor was "composer = creator = god", since of course for him "music = the whole universe". Definitely old school as far as his view of "composer" and "performer" roles (the guys in the band were just hired hands, easily replaced.)
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Edited Dec 18, 2007, 00:16
Dec 18, 2007, 00:14
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Pretty much all of the Krautrock bands when they played live, at least until 1972 or so (Can, Ash Ra Tempel, Kraftwerk, Neu!). Miles Davis in his fusion period. Flying Suacer Attack (live, at least) and E.A.R. Boredoms. The aforementioned Tim Buckley. Some of the Plastic People of the Universe's stuff. Early Grateful Dead, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Man.
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vince 1628 posts |
Dec 18, 2007, 04:29
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23 skidoo.
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zphage 3378 posts |
Dec 18, 2007, 16:55
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Kaliedoscope US with David Lindley kinda straddled both improvising divides of the serious musicianship and the organic 'let's see what happens'.
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Five 960 posts |
Dec 18, 2007, 22:03
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Dog 3000 wrote: Zappa as "director on stage" was always part of their dynamic, most obviously on the "Ahead of Their Time" CD where he's literally directing a "play" on stage dressed like an old-time movie producer complete with megaphone. The liner notes/libretto to "Civilization Phaze III" also describe action to be performed on stage during the music, and there is a character "FZ" who stands at the top of the stage periodically giving orders through a megaphone! Since he was dying as he composed it, apparently he intended for some actor to wear a costume as this character (I picture a "foam rubber giant nose & moustache" outfit!) 5 sez: nice quote="Dog 3000"]I think his basic metaphor was "composer = creator = god", since of course for him "music = the whole universe".[/quote] 5 sez: not a bad metaphor as they go, I just picked up a book along those lines called The Mysticism Of Sound And Music, The Sufi Teaching of Hazrat Inayat Khan, he says after a point in his musical studies, every person became a note and so forth... I think I have been there, maybe whenever I have the time and space to really be
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