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handofdave 3515 posts |
Dec 22, 2006, 15:10
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Just as I have no false preconceptions about the existence or nonexistance of God, I don't have any about what sort of being that might be, with what sort of temperment, etc... I don't subscribe to the old Judeo/Xtian idea of a big bearded daddy who's attention needy and quick to anger.
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Daminxa 1415 posts |
Dec 22, 2006, 17:58
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You can't make blanket statements about Christians being smug! Some Christians are thoroughly nice, if perhaps misguided, people. Some are wankers, but that's not necessarily because they are Christians, it's because they're just - well, wankers! Making prejudiced statements about a particular religious group isn't any better then fundamentalist Muslims calling all non-Muslims 'infadels' or whatever. Christians have some sound philosophies, among which is all the do as you would be done by stuff which, although cobbled from Buddhism is none the worse for that and still a good tenet to live your life by imho. What I hate is being TOLD what to believe and being TOLD how crap Islam is compared with Christianity, or Christianity is compared with Judaism. Equally I hate being TOLD not to believe in ANY kind of deity or spirituality by some arrogant academic Athiest who takes life far too fucking seriously and would do well to find something better to do with his time than piss all over other people's beliefs.
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Edited Dec 23, 2006, 16:00
Dec 23, 2006, 15:57
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Daminxa wrote: Christians have some sound philosophies, among which is all the do as you would be done by stuff which, although cobbled from Buddhism is none the worse for that and still a good tenet to live your life by imho. What I hate is being TOLD what to believe and being TOLD how crap Islam is compared with Christianity, or Christianity is compared with Judaism. Equally I hate being TOLD not to believe in ANY kind of deity or spirituality by some arrogant academic Athiest who takes life far too fucking seriously and would do well to find something better to do with his time than piss all over other people's beliefs. Sound philosophies? Where? Their philososphy is driven by the idea of 'saviour'. The end to their means is avoiding their own death, and it's an awfully selfish pursuit. We can not avoid death, and when you hide behind the veil of 'salvation', that's when people feel vindicated. They can shit all over and do what the fuck they like so long as they square it up with the big man (at the extreme end, yer suicide bombers apply). I think that philosophy stinks. Either way you look at it, it's pretty rotten. I beleive many academics are frustrated by things like this, and cry the clarion call for the common good in a way. If your morals don't come from a sense of your self, then that can spell big trouble. It doesn't make you a good person in the least, it means you've mainly taken out a subscription, and you might just forget to check the small print. We need, to be whole people, to find our own ideas of morality. That's one other reason I have no time for religion. I wish it would go away. Cleanse this world, please! x
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Dec 23, 2006, 16:12
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Shanshee, I just have to say that you must remember that their HAVE been societies that purged religion from the social fabric, but it didn't lead to a gentler, wiser culture... Communist Russia? Maoist China? Both brutal revolutions that repressed their own people and left millions in unmarked graves. I agree that SOME religions, and SOME branches of them, are out of whack, and I agree that the whole savior idea is unhealthy... it's a codified manifestation of regressive and infantile desire to have all your wants and needs provided by some all-powerful figure. HOWEVER... NOT ALL Christians are like this. One of my favorite people is a client of mine, a retired minister, a WW2 veteran who has a fantastic sense of humor, is vigourously anti-dogma and anti-fundamentalist. The idea of forgiveness is a sound one too- obviously not the sort that absolves oneself from guilt instantantly thru some declaration of oneness with a savior figure, but forgiveness of yourself and others for their humanity and all the foibles that entails. I think you must have had some bad experiences with Christians. Like all big institutions, it has it's faults, but don't curse the whole lot... it's really not fair to cast dispersions on people who've been sullied by some loudmouthed bullies who also call themselves "Christian". (insert any other religion here, same thing.)
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Dec 23, 2006, 16:29
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shanshee_allures wrote: We need, to be whole people, to find our own ideas of morality You do realize that this idea has just as much room for abuse? A rapist has his own ideas about morality. So does a suicide bomber. Or a child abuser. I'm not for state sponsored religion, but the basic tenents of moral code as they apply in most cultures are sound (Don't kill, don't steal, try to be a good neighbor). Some culture's moral code goes too far (hide your women in a giant black bag and don't let her drive!). The religious impulse is VERY old... you can't expunge it from the world so easily. Science is a validated belief system but it fails to provide what many people hunger for.. a sense of mystery.
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Edited Dec 23, 2006, 16:48
Dec 23, 2006, 16:46
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handofdave wrote: You do realize that this idea has just as much room for abuse? A rapist has his own ideas about morality. So does a suicide bomber. Or a child abuser. As does religious morality; check aforementioned suicide bomers! Whether or not he's corrupting his own (or hers, women can and have been suicide bombers too!) religious scritpures, he's still beckoning some wisp of air or other and if that went, then perhaps there'd be no excuses there anymore. We never, ever will be able to govern badness in this world, we can only police it. It's the human condition. I'd feel safer if there was no veil to hide your evil behind. All the secular loony dictators of the past have been pretty blatant about their intentions, but when you say its god's work you're doing, even the meekists nicest as pies followers won't dare speak up against what is painfully wrong to the rest of the world. That smells. handofdave wrote: The religious impulse is VERY old... you can't expunge it from the world so easily. Science is a validated belief system but it fails to provide what many people hunger for.. a sense of mystery. People hunger for eternal life. Fair enough, but why can't we all have it? Religious followers enjoy and covet their exclusivity that way. If we're too weak or feeble to believe then we can jump, even if it's not our fault. That's a bit harsh, if he created us all. Personally, I fucking hate the idea. Science a 'belief system'? Hmmm. We all know how creationists freak out at dinosaur bones and that. I see many mysterious and wonderful things aruond me everyday. Animals, rainbows, mountains etc etc. Perhaps we should just leave them too it, but the way in which the chips tend to be falling these days (and have been for centuries), perhaps a time out utilitairian approach is needed. Might be worth a go. x
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Dec 23, 2006, 17:16
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I still think you are dumping all religion and religious people into one pot based on their unfortunate theological association (in name only) with a few fanatics... and a bunch of people scared of the concept of death. It's very nearly pointless to villify all religion. It's almost as bad as saying that you hate all men, or hate all women, or hate everyone with red hair. Most of the world is religious.. and if you hate most of the world, that just makes you a misanthrope. Anyway, you seem to have a lot of faith in the idea that a world that shuns all religion is a better world. Perhaps it would be... but evidence based on past attempts suggests, at best, that a society without it just finds new ways to force control on it's population, often by even harsher and less 'human' methods than religion.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Dec 24, 2006, 01:11
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I dont think atheists get upset about other people beliveing in God or Gods or whatever. As a rule anyway. I'm sure you dont have to be religious to be evangelical. It's more about the way that religion influences politics, and skews societies in ways that aren't always in the best interests or wishes of the greatest possible number of people.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Dec 24, 2006, 04:57
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PMM wrote: I dont think atheists get upset about other people beliveing in God or Gods or whatever. As a rule anyway. I'm sure you dont have to be religious to be evangelical. That's right.. some people, even nonreligious people, cannot sleep at night knowing that there are still people out there who haven't been graced with the 'truth' like THEY have..... PMM wrote: It's more about the way that religion influences politics, and skews societies in ways that aren't always in the best interests or wishes of the greatest possible number of people. Religion can influence politics in positive ways too. The civil rights movement in the US was very much an Xtian cause... and earlier in history the antislavery movement was largely driven by religious groups. I'm not religious myself, or an advocate for it. But intellectual honesty compels me to acknowlege the good along with the bad.
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Dec 24, 2006, 15:42
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handofdave wrote: Most of the world is religious.. and if you hate most of the world, that just makes you a misanthrope. Even more of the world is made up of horrible spiders and insects and I detest them, does that make me a misanthrope? Sorry, being a bit facesious there, couldn't help it! I understand that many find comfort in religion, but in the most uber ironic way, I do 'pray' for them. handofdave wrote: Anyway, you seem to have a lot of faith in the idea that a world that shuns all religion is a better world. Perhaps it would be... but evidence based on past attempts suggests, at best, that a society without it just finds new ways to force control on it's population, often by even harsher and less 'human' methods than religion. I know what you mean, The French Revolution is a great example of that, but it was the system of religious lead/based institutions the revolutionaries were fighting against. Something tells me that if there hadn't been the religious imperative in the first place, then the whole of humanity might be different. But it was there, and it remains. I still maintian that at its root, religion came about through the fear of death, and how to implement and control that to someone or other's advantage. Would we have invented some other hierarchical system? Probably. But 'tyrannies' built on and controlled by secular philosophies tend to die out, and have at least more room for dissent, which ultimately leads to their demise. That at least creates the chance for civilisations to evolve. More than anything, religion frightens me. For the fact that humans deal with the concept of 'god' even less than that of death (they can bash tambourines and sing onward christian soldiers et.al 'til they are blue in the face, it's a fact), it's time it went. How can I be a misanthrope if all I want is a better world? Anyway, hope you have a great CHRISTmas! We've got too many visitors coming round too early as usual. That is probably the one thing that definately unites us! x
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