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grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 02:08
I actually did disagree with some (not all) of your other points.

But the point I was trying to make is that your claim that the SNP were a significant factor in the tory victory does not stand up to scrutiny. You seem to be saying that voters in Bolton West (to take a random Tory/Labour marginal) voted Tory instead of Labour because opinion polls suggested the SNP were doing well in Scotland?

That's plain irrational. There is absolutely no evidence that the people of Bolton West shift their political allegiance based upon the perceived popularity of the SNP.

You have a real problem with the SNP. I get that. A person can't have been using this forum for the past year without picking up on that. But if you really think that the SNP was a significant factor in the election in England (where the tories have a majority larger than the total number of Scottish constituencies) then you're guilty of projection.

Let's be straight; I don't particularly like the SNP. From what I know of them, they are a mainstream, vaguely centrist, pro-capitalist party. Their stated policies were marginally to the left of Ed Miliband's Labour Party, but there wasn't really a great deal in it. And I considered the Labour platform to be effectively centre-right. The SNP stance on Trident was significant in my eyes, but I have friends in the Scottish Green Party who also share that particular policy; so Trident by itself wasn't a reason to vote for them.

But - in Scottish terms - the simple truth demonstrated by the 2015 election is that even if literally nobody in Scotland voted tory, you would still have David Cameron as Prime Minister. And that would also be the case even if every SNP seat had been won by Labour. Because of English voting patterns, the people of Scotland - as a discrete voting bloc - could not have done anything at all to influence the outcome of the election.

On the surface of things that appears like a fairly convincing argument in favour of independence. When the English votes are close enough, then the Scottish vote can matter of course. Historically though, it's generally the case that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland get whatever government the English vote for - regardless of how they themselves vote.

This is the argument put forward by the SNP - but also by the Scottish Greens. It seems compelling, though it doesn't have to be of course. Because it begs the question... does that matter? When it comes to the UK election, why should Scotland be viewed as any more significant a "discrete voting bloc" than The Midlands or The South West? Regional variances in voting patterns are inevitable in large democracies after all.

Then it becomes a philosophical question about the nature of Scotland. A lot of Scottish people clearly feel that, as a group, they have important concerns and interests that are distinct enough from those in England to undermine their representation in a government elected primarily by England.

And surely that's a question for every Scottish person's conscience, as opposed to a party political issue? It's about personal identity as much as it's about anything else. That said; it is surely not insignificant that the people of Scotland have been saddled with almost a quarter century of tory governments since 1979... despite never once voting for them.

Doesn't that fact alone kind of make Scotland a discrete voting bloc?

I don't know... but as an Irishman who lived a long time in England and has more English friends than Irish, I'm very very happy that the people of West Sussex can't elect David Cameron as leader of my country. I love England and I love so much about it's culture; but it can keep its bizarre monarchy and its deeply fucked up militarism and its weapons of mass destruction and nuclear power stations and a whole bunch of stuff along those lines that - were I Scottish - I would jump at the chance of voting my way free of.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6058 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 13:11
It's posts like this that make this forum worth returning to.
Locodogz
Locodogz
265 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 14:13
I won't often take issue with your views but....

The Tories south of the border made huge political capital out of the 'vote Labour, get the SNP card' so yes, to answer your question the SNP (or the spectre thereof) may well have influenced a vote or two in Bolton West....
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 14:33
Locodogz wrote:

I won't often take issue with your views but....

The Tories south of the border made huge political capital out of the 'vote Labour, get the SNP card' so yes, to answer your question the SNP (or the spectre thereof) may well have influenced a vote or two in Bolton West....


Absolutely.
Thanks for getting what I was saying, wasn't that complicated a thing to figure out.
Not the SNPs fault people voted for the of course, but if it wasn't for the whole stupid referendum and all that it may have went differently.
I saw George Galloway doing his 'just say naw tour' and he could forsee a consequence of a Tory permanence and the SNP up here for the very things I have illustrated.
IF we voted yes of course, but we are seeing some microcosm of that anyway, and is he an empire lovin' royal watchin' Britnat?
No he isn't. He was speaking about the unity of people, and hopefully we get back to how important that is.
As for 'Scottish sensibilities v everyone else's' well I did see quite a few Yes stickers on the windows of ex council houses, 'gifted' of course to them by none other than Thatcher, so bollocks to that argument.
And if anyone cares to look there is as much suspicion here of EU migrants and all that too.
Getting back to the thread, let's hope Corbyn does it even for the sake of offering proper debate again.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 14:34
Locodogz wrote:
I won't often take issue with your views but....

The Tories south of the border made huge political capital out of the 'vote Labour, get the SNP card' so yes, to answer your question the SNP (or the spectre thereof) may well have influenced a vote or two in Bolton West....


I'd love to see some evidence of that. Every post-election analysis I have read (and I've read several) concluded that the issue was not a factor in the English vote in Tory/Labour marginals.

I'm well aware that the Tories tried very hard to make it an issue, but I've not read a single convincing report since the election that shows they succeeded. The overwhelming consensus is that Labour lost the election because they didn't engage with the electorate, not because the SNP were perceived as holding sway over them.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1071 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 14:40
A lot of people I know mostly voted labour just to be rid of the tories. From what I saw of the past 5 years, and the whole election debacle was that there was so much division and little to no opposition.

Did the tories win because more people believe in them? No, they won because of the fact that there was no opposition and a disenfranchised electorate who saw no one to vote for, as far as I'm concerned.

Hopefully with Corbyn (assuming he wins) we'll have a genuine opposition party again, not one who abstains on important issues and does very little to support the people of Britain, and further.
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 14:54
My *identity* is with the people on this little land of ours, as I was born and raised.
I would not for a second question the way you view your identity, I would have no right to.
As for the Scottish Greens I do not understand why they would choose to separate from the UK when more can be achieved the bigger the pool.
And I also do not know why you write 'it is clear you hate the SNP' when there are numerous attacks here on the Tories (usually unchallenged) which although I see as quite right does suggest I am doing something 'unusually wrong'.
They are just a political party that I detest, which is allowed, right?
If anyone cares to back up their domestic record in Scotland though that is fine with me, I can have that discussion.
Seems however no one is willing to.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1071 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 15:15
There's a number of articles online both praising them and condemning them so it's not easy to gain any 'expert' judgement on their progress, and living outside Scotland, as many of us do we can only use secondary articles as any inclination as to what's going on. I live in Wales, I doubt you'd have much of an idea of what Plaid Cwmru get up to, so for most people it's difficult to have any level of conversation as to the progress of regional parties activities.
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Edited Sep 07, 2015, 15:43
Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 15:42
SNP have been dominant up here since 2007, a bit different to the situation in Wales with Plyd.
Do it on low turnouts mind, who knows what's next.
SNP amalgamated all our police forces which has been widely reported as a total failure, and I have experience of that.
Plenty out there to read also.
FE colleges have been almost wiped out, and the SNP offer free education to anyone in the EU other than the Welsh, English or those form NI which I see as a bit 'shitty'.
The bind I am in is 'people vote for them though' even though it is widely reported they fail in public confidence surveys when it comes to domestic issues.
Well people will report dissatisfaction but somehow that does not connect in their minds with the current (now well established) administration.
Takes me back to my feeling that politics right now have been shattered and no one is left thinking straight.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1071 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Sep 07, 2015, 15:47
Well Plaid are the main opposition party in Wales and have been around a bit longer than the SNP, but I don't expect you to know that, or what they stand for as you don't live here, which was the point I was trying to get across.
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