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bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 20:16
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
nigelswift wrote:
bladup wrote:
wannabe academics


Have you considered whether we might all occupy a single spectrum of academics or experts?

I think it's wrong to think there are two distinct camps.


I think i have just experienced it!! i was told my opinion wasn't worth as much as somebody else [ who clearly feels is an expert himself ].



"
Maybe you should read what was said ""You might like to think your opinion might be as valid as anyone else's , but if your opinion is wrong , in this case the continually unaddressed "Stone circles have nothing left in them " it is not . "" . Note the qualifier "but if your opinion is wrong " .
Regardless , believing that one's person's opinion is as good as anyone's else's is just pathetic relativism often heard from those with a bit of a chip on the shoulder . Do you really think that your or my opinion on the import of the discovery of the Higgs boson is as valid as someone who might actually know something about the subject ?


Yes you gave me the chip, it was NOT unaddressed, and yes because the hicks boson will probably be proved bollocks in 500 years, because that's how history works------- just look back though it..............



But the comment has shown to be wrong .That's how science works , it is never "right" just continually providing better models of reality . It's only the those who use non falsifiable comments that can't be wrong .No our opinion is worthless compared to those who anything about it .


Now we're getting somewhere and i proudly stick to everything i have wrote, i think you are wrong and the the future will prove me right-- i am entitled to my opinion as are you.


We might be entitled to an opinion it doesn't mean it should be necessarily meaningful or worth considering .
Where was I wrong ?
According to you "....will probably be proved bollocks in 500 years, because that's how history works " and "the future will prove me right " therefore with that reasoning what you were proved right about will probably be proved bollocks 500 years later .


You got it!!!!!! that's right and i accept that with all my heart because that's how life works.
bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 20:20
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
Stonehenge and the recumbents [it's all about the recumbent at them- i've been to enough] are not true stone circles and the recumbents do seem to have had a fire at the start [probably to clear the ground]. It really does seem to be different where you are in the country which suggests different things were going on all over, therefore it was probably very regional as to what went on , i can almost hear the dancing feet down here in cornwall.


I think the name recumbent stone circles tells us what type of monument it is . Recumbents also have burials associated with them , as well as ring cairns . Stone circles in the south west had charcoal deposits e.g. at Ferworthy the entire inner space was covered in charcoal, Brisworthy and the Grey Wethers also had charcoal deposits , Boskednan had a cist .Hurlers northern circle was paved with granite ,Duloe had an urn with a cremation . "Swept clean " and don't like excavating them "quotes ?


Fires before the circle was put up [probably just to clear the ground ready for the build] boskednan's cist/cairn would probably have been put there a 1000 years after the circle stones [ we'll have to wait for it to be dated to prove one of us right] the people who built the cairn may have had no idea what the circle was for by that point, just that it was built by the ancestors, and the paving i'm sure was only added when the last circle was put up [so a long time after there was a stone circle there, there may also be evidence of the stone's been worked which would also be late in the scheme of things, and duloe's a funny old circle so i'll have a guess and say the urn is contemporary with the circle- as it could be the most flashy burial in the country, it's a very unusual place and unlike anything else around here.


We have to rely on excavation and RC dating to find the actual sequence , guesswork and estimations even from the experienced expert can be shown to be wrong .
Getting a date for the Boskednan cist does not date the circle .
Stone circles have been erected at sites that had seen earlier activity that the builders would have been aware of , and that activity may well have been the reason for choosing to build the monument at the site in the first place . Stone circles built within clearly visible earlier monuments are obvious examples e.g. Arbor Low , Stonehenge , Broomend of Crichie (where burials were also found in the stone sockets ) , Newgrange , Moncrieffe ,Clava (where the sequence shows that the stone circles were erected soon after the ring cairns were built ) .
Neolithic pottery was found in a shallow scoop underneath the recumbent and in the socket of a fallen orthostats as well as other contexts at Daviot . Excavations from the 1990's showed that at Tomnaverie the old land surface was covered with burnt soil , comminuted charcoal and fragments of human bone , this was covered by a cairn and platform in which monoliths were stood , under the recumbent charcoal produced a date of 2498-2432 BC. Although there were further use of the site in the Late Bronze Age and 16&17th C ad the last structure was the RSC with the recumbent being last of that . The sequence and date was not what was generally expected and the findings were repeated at Cothiemur Wood where the the ring cairn was seen as the first structure followed by the stone circle similar results were discovered at Aikey Brae . It would only take one example to refute “Stone circles have nothing left in them “ . And clearly the effort put in and interest shown by the archaeologists who chose to excavate these places including the findings of earlier and contemporaneous material refutes “thats why archeologists don't like them]
and when they do find stuff it's from a different age [romans liked leaving coins] to when the circle was built, “


No silly you would have to date the circle as well [boskednan] - the recumbents are a class of their own as i think the stone circle is always secondry to the recumbent itself, like the stone circles are secondry to the clava cairns [sometimes they don't even have the circle do they?]. In other places the stone circle [the "true" ones] was all important. Of couse archeologists interested in prehistory would like them [as we would- it's the same], the average archeologist less so - as there's not going to be much there [oh no i said it].


Your'e the one who said "boskednan's cist/cairn would probably have been put there a 1000 years after the circle stones [ we'll have to wait for it to be dated to prove one of us right] " i.e. prejudging the date of the circle from the date of cist . Hence "Getting a date for the Boskednan cist does not date the circle . "
You might think /believe /imagine the stone circle to be secondary to the recumbent or the stone circle to be secondary to the ring cairns at Clava ( all the ring cairns at Clava have stone circles around them , some Clava cairns i.e. those named after the Clava site don't necessarily ) but that does nothing to change what we know from excavation which among many other suggestions refutes your “Stone circles have nothing left in them “ . I see that
"Stone circles have nothing left in them thats why archeologists don't like them] “ has been moderated to “ Of couse archeologists interested in prehistory would like them “ where the “them “ are stone circles .


They may be the first stone circles also, but if they are they took on a life of there own around the rest of the country.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 20:21
So are "feelings" valid evidence?
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 20:22
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
Stonehenge and the recumbents [it's all about the recumbent at them- i've been to enough] are not true stone circles and the recumbents do seem to have had a fire at the start [probably to clear the ground]. It really does seem to be different where you are in the country which suggests different things were going on all over, therefore it was probably very regional as to what went on , i can almost hear the dancing feet down here in cornwall.


I think the name recumbent stone circles tells us what type of monument it is . Recumbents also have burials associated with them , as well as ring cairns . Stone circles in the south west had charcoal deposits e.g. at Ferworthy the entire inner space was covered in charcoal, Brisworthy and the Grey Wethers also had charcoal deposits , Boskednan had a cist .Hurlers northern circle was paved with granite ,Duloe had an urn with a cremation . "Swept clean " and don't like excavating them "quotes ?


Fires before the circle was put up [probably just to clear the ground ready for the build] boskednan's cist/cairn would probably have been put there a 1000 years after the circle stones [ we'll have to wait for it to be dated to prove one of us right] the people who built the cairn may have had no idea what the circle was for by that point, just that it was built by the ancestors, and the paving i'm sure was only added when the last circle was put up [so a long time after there was a stone circle there, there may also be evidence of the stone's been worked which would also be late in the scheme of things, and duloe's a funny old circle so i'll have a guess and say the urn is contemporary with the circle- as it could be the most flashy burial in the country, it's a very unusual place and unlike anything else around here.


We have to rely on excavation and RC dating to find the actual sequence , guesswork and estimations even from the experienced expert can be shown to be wrong .
Getting a date for the Boskednan cist does not date the circle .
Stone circles have been erected at sites that had seen earlier activity that the builders would have been aware of , and that activity may well have been the reason for choosing to build the monument at the site in the first place . Stone circles built within clearly visible earlier monuments are obvious examples e.g. Arbor Low , Stonehenge , Broomend of Crichie (where burials were also found in the stone sockets ) , Newgrange , Moncrieffe ,Clava (where the sequence shows that the stone circles were erected soon after the ring cairns were built ) .
Neolithic pottery was found in a shallow scoop underneath the recumbent and in the socket of a fallen orthostats as well as other contexts at Daviot . Excavations from the 1990's showed that at Tomnaverie the old land surface was covered with burnt soil , comminuted charcoal and fragments of human bone , this was covered by a cairn and platform in which monoliths were stood , under the recumbent charcoal produced a date of 2498-2432 BC. Although there were further use of the site in the Late Bronze Age and 16&17th C ad the last structure was the RSC with the recumbent being last of that . The sequence and date was not what was generally expected and the findings were repeated at Cothiemur Wood where the the ring cairn was seen as the first structure followed by the stone circle similar results were discovered at Aikey Brae . It would only take one example to refute “Stone circles have nothing left in them “ . And clearly the effort put in and interest shown by the archaeologists who chose to excavate these places including the findings of earlier and contemporaneous material refutes “thats why archeologists don't like them]
and when they do find stuff it's from a different age [romans liked leaving coins] to when the circle was built, “


No silly you would have to date the circle as well [boskednan] - the recumbents are a class of their own as i think the stone circle is always secondry to the recumbent itself, like the stone circles are secondry to the clava cairns [sometimes they don't even have the circle do they?]. In other places the stone circle [the "true" ones] was all important. Of couse archeologists interested in prehistory would like them [as we would- it's the same], the average archeologist less so - as there's not going to be much there [oh no i said it].


Your'e the one who said "boskednan's cist/cairn would probably have been put there a 1000 years after the circle stones [ we'll have to wait for it to be dated to prove one of us right] " i.e. prejudging the date of the circle from the date of cist . Hence "Getting a date for the Boskednan cist does not date the circle . "
You might think /believe /imagine the stone circle to be secondary to the recumbent or the stone circle to be secondary to the ring cairns at Clava ( all the ring cairns at Clava have stone circles around them , some Clava cairns i.e. those named after the Clava site don't necessarily ) but that does nothing to change what we know from excavation which among many other suggestions refutes your “Stone circles have nothing left in them “ . I see that
"Stone circles have nothing left in them thats why archeologists don't like them] “ has been moderated to “ Of couse archeologists interested in prehistory would like them “ where the “them “ are stone circles .


They may be the first stone circles also, but if they are they took on a life of there own around the rest of the country.


What may be the first stone circles ?
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 20:27
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
nigelswift wrote:
bladup wrote:
wannabe academics


Have you considered whether we might all occupy a single spectrum of academics or experts?

I think it's wrong to think there are two distinct camps.


I think i have just experienced it!! i was told my opinion wasn't worth as much as somebody else [ who clearly feels is an expert himself ].



"
Maybe you should read what was said ""You might like to think your opinion might be as valid as anyone else's , but if your opinion is wrong , in this case the continually unaddressed "Stone circles have nothing left in them " it is not . "" . Note the qualifier "but if your opinion is wrong " .
Regardless , believing that one's person's opinion is as good as anyone's else's is just pathetic relativism often heard from those with a bit of a chip on the shoulder . Do you really think that your or my opinion on the import of the discovery of the Higgs boson is as valid as someone who might actually know something about the subject ?


Yes you gave me the chip, it was NOT unaddressed, and yes because the hicks boson will probably be proved bollocks in 500 years, because that's how history works------- just look back though it..............



But the comment has shown to be wrong .That's how science works , it is never "right" just continually providing better models of reality . It's only the those who use non falsifiable comments that can't be wrong .No our opinion is worthless compared to those who anything about it .


Now we're getting somewhere and i proudly stick to everything i have wrote, i think you are wrong and the the future will prove me right-- i am entitled to my opinion as are you.


We might be entitled to an opinion it doesn't mean it should be necessarily meaningful or worth considering .
Where was I wrong ?
According to you "....will probably be proved bollocks in 500 years, because that's how history works " and "the future will prove me right " therefore with that reasoning what you were proved right about will probably be proved bollocks 500 years later .


You got it!!!!!! that's right and i accept that with all my heart because that's how life works.


The last bit about 500 years and bollocks is not what I believe , I was simply showing your reasoning , your'e agreeing with yourself .
bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 20:59
nigelswift wrote:
So are "feelings" valid evidence?


Only really to yourself, it all comes down to trust of course doesn't it.
bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 21:01
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
nigelswift wrote:
bladup wrote:
wannabe academics


Have you considered whether we might all occupy a single spectrum of academics or experts?

I think it's wrong to think there are two distinct camps.


I think i have just experienced it!! i was told my opinion wasn't worth as much as somebody else [ who clearly feels is an expert himself ].



"
Maybe you should read what was said ""You might like to think your opinion might be as valid as anyone else's , but if your opinion is wrong , in this case the continually unaddressed "Stone circles have nothing left in them " it is not . "" . Note the qualifier "but if your opinion is wrong " .
Regardless , believing that one's person's opinion is as good as anyone's else's is just pathetic relativism often heard from those with a bit of a chip on the shoulder . Do you really think that your or my opinion on the import of the discovery of the Higgs boson is as valid as someone who might actually know something about the subject ?


Yes you gave me the chip, it was NOT unaddressed, and yes because the hicks boson will probably be proved bollocks in 500 years, because that's how history works------- just look back though it..............



But the comment has shown to be wrong .That's how science works , it is never "right" just continually providing better models of reality . It's only the those who use non falsifiable comments that can't be wrong .No our opinion is worthless compared to those who anything about it .


Now we're getting somewhere and i proudly stick to everything i have wrote, i think you are wrong and the the future will prove me right-- i am entitled to my opinion as are you.


We might be entitled to an opinion it doesn't mean it should be necessarily meaningful or worth considering .
Where was I wrong ?
According to you "....will probably be proved bollocks in 500 years, because that's how history works " and "the future will prove me right " therefore with that reasoning what you were proved right about will probably be proved bollocks 500 years later .


You got it!!!!!! that's right and i accept that with all my heart because that's how life works.


The last bit about 500 years and bollocks is not what I believe , I was simply showing your reasoning , your'e agreeing with yourself .


I hope so, it's never good to argue with oneself.
bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 21:11
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
tiompan wrote:
bladup wrote:
Stonehenge and the recumbents [it's all about the recumbent at them- i've been to enough] are not true stone circles and the recumbents do seem to have had a fire at the start [probably to clear the ground]. It really does seem to be different where you are in the country which suggests different things were going on all over, therefore it was probably very regional as to what went on , i can almost hear the dancing feet down here in cornwall.


I think the name recumbent stone circles tells us what type of monument it is . Recumbents also have burials associated with them , as well as ring cairns . Stone circles in the south west had charcoal deposits e.g. at Ferworthy the entire inner space was covered in charcoal, Brisworthy and the Grey Wethers also had charcoal deposits , Boskednan had a cist .Hurlers northern circle was paved with granite ,Duloe had an urn with a cremation . "Swept clean " and don't like excavating them "quotes ?


Fires before the circle was put up [probably just to clear the ground ready for the build] boskednan's cist/cairn would probably have been put there a 1000 years after the circle stones [ we'll have to wait for it to be dated to prove one of us right] the people who built the cairn may have had no idea what the circle was for by that point, just that it was built by the ancestors, and the paving i'm sure was only added when the last circle was put up [so a long time after there was a stone circle there, there may also be evidence of the stone's been worked which would also be late in the scheme of things, and duloe's a funny old circle so i'll have a guess and say the urn is contemporary with the circle- as it could be the most flashy burial in the country, it's a very unusual place and unlike anything else around here.


We have to rely on excavation and RC dating to find the actual sequence , guesswork and estimations even from the experienced expert can be shown to be wrong .
Getting a date for the Boskednan cist does not date the circle .
Stone circles have been erected at sites that had seen earlier activity that the builders would have been aware of , and that activity may well have been the reason for choosing to build the monument at the site in the first place . Stone circles built within clearly visible earlier monuments are obvious examples e.g. Arbor Low , Stonehenge , Broomend of Crichie (where burials were also found in the stone sockets ) , Newgrange , Moncrieffe ,Clava (where the sequence shows that the stone circles were erected soon after the ring cairns were built ) .
Neolithic pottery was found in a shallow scoop underneath the recumbent and in the socket of a fallen orthostats as well as other contexts at Daviot . Excavations from the 1990's showed that at Tomnaverie the old land surface was covered with burnt soil , comminuted charcoal and fragments of human bone , this was covered by a cairn and platform in which monoliths were stood , under the recumbent charcoal produced a date of 2498-2432 BC. Although there were further use of the site in the Late Bronze Age and 16&17th C ad the last structure was the RSC with the recumbent being last of that . The sequence and date was not what was generally expected and the findings were repeated at Cothiemur Wood where the the ring cairn was seen as the first structure followed by the stone circle similar results were discovered at Aikey Brae . It would only take one example to refute “Stone circles have nothing left in them “ . And clearly the effort put in and interest shown by the archaeologists who chose to excavate these places including the findings of earlier and contemporaneous material refutes “thats why archeologists don't like them]
and when they do find stuff it's from a different age [romans liked leaving coins] to when the circle was built, “


No silly you would have to date the circle as well [boskednan] - the recumbents are a class of their own as i think the stone circle is always secondry to the recumbent itself, like the stone circles are secondry to the clava cairns [sometimes they don't even have the circle do they?]. In other places the stone circle [the "true" ones] was all important. Of couse archeologists interested in prehistory would like them [as we would- it's the same], the average archeologist less so - as there's not going to be much there [oh no i said it].


Your'e the one who said "boskednan's cist/cairn would probably have been put there a 1000 years after the circle stones [ we'll have to wait for it to be dated to prove one of us right] " i.e. prejudging the date of the circle from the date of cist . Hence "Getting a date for the Boskednan cist does not date the circle . "
You might think /believe /imagine the stone circle to be secondary to the recumbent or the stone circle to be secondary to the ring cairns at Clava ( all the ring cairns at Clava have stone circles around them , some Clava cairns i.e. those named after the Clava site don't necessarily ) but that does nothing to change what we know from excavation which among many other suggestions refutes your “Stone circles have nothing left in them “ . I see that
"Stone circles have nothing left in them thats why archeologists don't like them] “ has been moderated to “ Of couse archeologists interested in prehistory would like them “ where the “them “ are stone circles .


They may be the first stone circles also, but if they are they took on a life of there own around the rest of the country.


What may be the first stone circles ?


Some of The recumbent stone circles of beautitful [in parts] aberdeenshire [shires a very anglo- saxon word isn't it- there's loads of my surname" blades" in lanarkshire, and ayrshire- bloody hell scotlands nearly got as many shires as england, there must be more englishmen in scotland than scotsmen].
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 21:25
So really, you can accuse academics of being closed-minded from your own perspective but you can't use your own perspective as evidence to present to others to support your own contention they're closed-minded? Well you can, but you can't logically expect them to take any notice.
bladup
bladup
1986 posts

Re: The finished circle
Aug 05, 2012, 21:37
nigelswift wrote:
So really, you can accuse academics of being closed-minded from your own perspective but you can't use your own perspective as evidence to present to others to support your own contention they're closed-minded? Well you can, but you can't logically expect them to take any notice.


Hey i was only ever saying one person was been closed minded!! i know not all academics are closed minded, quite the contrary, sorry with the rest you've lost me a bit- but maybe that's the point so called intelligence is sometimes used as a bit of a weapon here i feel.
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