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goffik
goffik
3926 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 14:11
slumpystones wrote:
PS if anyone wants a picture of a tyre, email me, my van's just outside.


Ooh, yes please! But only if it was dig out of a sacred monument, please...

Now then, young man - I'm sure you know that my point about the tyres was to point out that seemingly not EVERYTHING was being documented correctly. :o)

But I'm happy to be corrected.

I'm not a tyre obsessive. Honest.

G x
Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 14:33
I'm not a tyre obsessive. Honest.


Yeah... that's not what you said when you came to the Megameet dressed in 'em from head to toe :-)
Robert Carr
84 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 14:52
Littlestone wrote:
Yes, I am ripping into image/map that heads the latest update because it is totally relevant to what follows in that update; the fact that the text on the image/map cannot be read is simply gross incompetence on the part of whoever is responsible for these updates. Please note my use of words here whoever is responsible. If the person who posted the image/map is some exhausted archaeologist or engineer after a long day onsite he has my greatest sympathy; I do not understand however why that person is doing that work when it is patently obvious that someone with computer skills at English Heritage should be collating the information and putting it on their website promptly and professionally; that is not happening (re: also their Ask the Experts link) and until it does I make no apology for calling those responsible at English Heritage fools (I should have called them incompetent fools - that would have been more accurate ;-)


Why all the bile? It's just a website.

Anyway the English Heritage site looks OK to me. Is there something wrong with your browser? Try re-installing.
slumpystones
769 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 14:59
Robert Carr wrote:
Littlestone wrote:
Yes, I am ripping into image/map that heads the latest update because it is totally relevant to what follows in that update; the fact that the text on the image/map cannot be read is simply gross incompetence on the part of whoever is responsible for these updates. Please note my use of words here whoever is responsible. If the person who posted the image/map is some exhausted archaeologist or engineer after a long day onsite he has my greatest sympathy; I do not understand however why that person is doing that work when it is patently obvious that someone with computer skills at English Heritage should be collating the information and putting it on their website promptly and professionally; that is not happening (re: also their Ask the Experts link) and until it does I make no apology for calling those responsible at English Heritage fools (I should have called them incompetent fools - that would have been more accurate ;-)


Why all the bile? It's just a website.

Anyway the English Heritage site looks OK to me. Is there something wrong with your browser? Try re-installing.


Six updates, and not much info in any of them. Images that are poor to say the least. Ask The Experts with no answers.

Need I go on?

The point is that EH is a massive organisation, who have planned this for seven years, and yet they cannot compile an update that satisfies those reading them. It's nothing to do with browsers or the EH site, it's purely a demonstration in organisational incompetence, by people paid to organise. As was stated, this is not the job of a worn-out digger at the end of the
day, but the job of a civil servant in an office who is turning out sub-standard material.
slumpystones
769 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 15:16
ascorbic wrote:
slumpystones wrote:
The reports and updates are surely not the responsibility of a guy who has worked a six-day week and slept in a portacabin? Condensing the reports, accumulating images and compiling the updates must be the job of a guy in a suit somewhere, and they are the guys that deserve any criticism.


Nope, the reports are the responsibility of those on the ground. Some of the archaeologists are tasked with dealing with the public-facing stuff when they're not in the tunnel or whatever. This is probably best, in terms of getting the best information. It's also the only way that on-site visitors can find anything out. Likewise, "Ask The Experts" needs to be done by the archs, as they are the experts! However, this does mean that there will be technical issues, but those are being sorted out. The guys at head office (or some other EH office somewhere - I don't know) are the ones who deal with the actual stuff of putting things onto the web site and handling the technical stuff related to that.


And they are the people at whom the criticism is directed!
ascorbic
ascorbic
15 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 15:33
slumpystones wrote:

And they are the people at whom the criticism is directed!


Which "they"?
ascorbic
ascorbic
15 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 15:42
slumpystones wrote:
As was stated, this is not the job of a worn-out digger at the end of the
day, but the job of a civil servant in an office who is turning out sub-standard material.


If they were done by civil servants, do you think they'd be any better? The archaeologists asked to do the updates because they wanted to make sure they had the information in them. What exactly is the problem you have with the reports, other than the jpeg compression level of the diagram? If you're unhappy with the amount of information in there, what do you think is missing? Bear in mind that they can't write about stuff that's not there. Do you think that a status report really worth more time than the approximate day per week that they're spending writing these?
slumpystones
769 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 15:53
ascorbic wrote:
slumpystones wrote:
As was stated, this is not the job of a worn-out digger at the end of the
day, but the job of a civil servant in an office who is turning out sub-standard material.


If they were done by civil servants, do you think they'd be any better? The archaeologists asked to do the updates because they wanted to make sure they had the information in them. What exactly is the problem you have with the reports, other than the jpeg compression level of the diagram? If you're unhappy with the amount of information in there, what do you think is missing? Bear in mind that they can't write about stuff that's not there. Do you think that a status report really worth more time than the approximate day per week that they're spending writing these?


Well they are kind of...empty? I appreciate that they are largely removing 1969 infill, which should be clean, and I don't need a picture to know what a tyre looks like after 40 years in the ground, but for such a mammoth project I would have expected more info. If the archaeologists insisted on compiling the reports themselves then time should have been properly set aside to enable them to produce something worthy of publishing. Again, no blame on the guys on the ground, but yer man in Whitehall [or wherever] would probably have a week to work on it, and the saving of his time should have been available at Silbury.

I suppose we're blessed with instant-fix Time Team, with assumptions being made on the spot, but to have what appear to be two ditches and read no comment on them is frustrating. Nobody expects a carbon date, but an educated guess would be nice. It doesn't have to be conclusive, "It's a hill on a henge", but it would be nice to know the thoughts of those on the ground, rather than a sterile weekly report.

The image? Well that speaks for itself.
ascorbic
ascorbic
15 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 16:16
slumpystones wrote:

Well they are kind of...empty? I appreciate that they are largely removing 1969 infill, which should be clean, and I don't need a picture to know what a tyre looks like after 40 years in the ground, but for such a mammoth project I would have expected more info. If the archaeologists insisted on compiling the reports themselves then time should have been properly set aside to enable them to produce something worthy of publishing. Again, no blame on the guys on the ground, but yer man in Whitehall [or wherever] would probably have a week to work on it, and the saving of his time should have been available at Silbury.

I suppose we're blessed with instant-fix Time Team, with assumptions being made on the spot, but to have what appear to be two ditches and read no comment on them is frustrating. Nobody expects a carbon date, but an educated guess would be nice. It doesn't have to be conclusive, "It's a hill on a henge", but it would be nice to know the thoughts of those on the ground, rather than a sterile weekly report.

The image? Well that speaks for itself.


Well, the last update was about 1000 words. Last week there were two reports, adding up to about the same. I think you're spot-on with the Time Time comment. Most archaeologists treat that show in a similar way to host real CSIs treat that show - they hate the misleading impression it gives and the expectations it raises. You get an hour on Time Team, supposedly taken from three days of digging, when in fact Wessex have been spending much longer before and after sorting it out. There simply is not that much to report yet. Sure, you could pay a civil servant to work on them full time, and maybe you'd get a better report, but there's unlikely to be more information in it because there's not much more information to give. Is that really the best use of taxpayers' money?

In terms of the specifics, they haven't said more because they don't know yet! I believe they've found more stuff in the past couple of days (I could be wrong), so perhaps that will be in the next report. There's no point in making speculations at such an early stage. Sure it may satisfy curiousity and may turn out to be accurate, but I'm sure we can wait another week or so and know something concrete. Where speculation is useful, it has been put in. Read the reports and see.

Time is set aside for the archaeologists to work on them, to the extent that they're allowed to fit their other work around it, and can go and spend a few hours writing up notes, talking to the other archs and engineers, taking and assembling photos, preparing the report and so forth.

I don't know what other archaeological digs you're familiar with, but it's pretty rare to get anything close to this level of information while it's going on. Web updates, photos, videos, a visitor information point on site, staffed seven days a week by archaeologists who can answer questions, show finds and so on. The idea that they should employ someone full time in an office somewhere purely to write weekly reports seems a little bizarre to me. Are we that impatient? The updates let us know what's going on (and provide some interesting detail). The full site report will be published later, which will have all the nitty gritty detail and conclusions. That will be written after they've been able to appraise the whole project, run tests and so forth. It seems that people are expecting a Time Team Special or academic paper every week. 1000 words, six pages. I don't know what everyone's complaining about. The reports have plenty of interesting information to me.
slumpystones
769 posts

Re: Silbury updates
Jun 27, 2007, 16:54
ascorbic wrote:
Time is set aside for the archaeologists to work on them, to the extent that they're allowed to fit their other work around it, and can go and spend a few hours writing up notes, talking to the other archs and engineers, taking and assembling photos, preparing the report and so forth.


You said they'd been drinking beer too. Glad they found time for the simple pleasures ;)

I guess we are guilty of the Time Team thing, and you're right about the 'before and after' work being done by others with no credit, leaving them to edit film in later with amazingly educated assumptions. It makes it dangerous, because when we have this multi-million pound project, we're pretty much conditioned to expect results now.

Most of my dig experience is being a pain in the arse by asking constant questions, taking photos and generally getting in everyone's way, bribing them with beer n stuff to save myself from getting a ban :)

As for the Whitehall civil servant, I just thought it would be better to ask someone with webpage experience to put together the report based on stuff received from the site. If the image is crap, I'm surprised nobody put their hand up and asked for a better one, which is how it would work anywhere else.
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