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IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Oct 04, 2013, 13:36
Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 13:07
I can only assume that this personal attack means you have taken my points as a personal attack too (which was certainly not intended). I have to say I am somewhat flabbergasted that you would hold this view given our previous meetings and correspondence.

What I can tell you is that I would never try and extrapolate a fixed idea of what drives your creativity or personality (or the creativity or personalities of a bunch of other people that I have never actually met) from the method with which you have chosen to make and distribute your music.

Does this mean striving for music to be heard in the mainstream media (rather than waiting for someone to stumble over it) is somehow a political failure and does that mean that those who do try that route have to take what results from that effort at face value and wholly uncritically?

It is almost as if you find the effort in some way cowardly or perhaps as a cultural betrayal. If so then I find that to be a fairly odd perspective for someone who likes something as nakedly consumerist as rock n roll.

But of course forming and maintaining an improv-based collective with seven other people and a pinhole photographer was completely motivated by a quest for money and critical recognition. It's the obvious route anyone with those ambitions would take.
stray
stray
2057 posts

Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 13:36
IanB wrote:
Lovely.

Elitist? I hold my hand up. The rest is bollocks. There are easier ways, I can tell you. Though, if that is what you really believe, it makes me question the basis on which you pick your would-be remixers ;-)


How do you mean, in that I approached you and should have known better ? Ah well fair enough, I only really discovered today these horribly divisive and myopic opinions that you hold ;).
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Oct 04, 2013, 13:45
Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 13:44
stray wrote:
IanB wrote:
Lovely.

Elitist? I hold my hand up. The rest is bollocks. There are easier ways, I can tell you. Though, if that is what you really believe, it makes me question the basis on which you pick your would-be remixers ;-)


How do you mean, in that I approached you and should have known better ? Ah well fair enough, I only really discovered today these horribly divisive and myopic opinions that you hold ;).


No, that you would hold this opinion of someone you have shared a board with for X years and yet not feel strange asking for the collaboration. Of course if you have been skimming my stuff and have only just realised what a cunt I am then fair enough. I haven't asked Hami yet as he has been a bit busy with an Albanian Brass Band project. Another stab at fame, cash and glory no doubt!
stray
stray
2057 posts

Edited Oct 04, 2013, 14:02
Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 14:01
IanB wrote:
stray wrote:
IanB wrote:
Lovely.

Elitist? I hold my hand up. The rest is bollocks. There are easier ways, I can tell you. Though, if that is what you really believe, it makes me question the basis on which you pick your would-be remixers ;-)


How do you mean, in that I approached you and should have known better ? Ah well fair enough, I only really discovered today these horribly divisive and myopic opinions that you hold ;).


No, that you would hold this opinion of someone you have shared a board with for X years and yet not feel strange asking for the collaboration. Of course if you have been skimming my stuff and have only just realised what a cunt I am then fair enough. I haven't asked Hami yet as he has been a bit busy with an Albanian Brass Band project. Another stab at fame, cash and glory no doubt!


I asked if you would be interested in collaborating because you 'got' the work. No other reason really. I originally asked for your feedback on it too because I have a lot of time for your taste in music and you'ld know where it was coming from (see I appreciate an educated audience too ;)). Not because of your music/artistic politics or opinions on music. I asked cos I would appreciate your comments on it. Which I did.
stray
stray
2057 posts

Edited Oct 04, 2013, 14:12
Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 14:04
I still think you're a dreadful cock with more than unfortunate opinions though. Also, whats worse, your opinions and attitude is actually the real problem that you're wailing against but you can't see it.

Edit : I mean sure, there have been occasions on here I've disagreed with you. But I never thought you were the kind of person to go as far as to insult people who actually like your work because they're not educated enough to like it for the right reasons (the reviewer).
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Oct 04, 2013, 14:15
Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 14:12
stray wrote:
I still think you're a dreadful cock with more than unfortunate opinions though. Also, whats worse, your opinions and attitude is actually the real problem that you're wailing against but you can't see it.


But you can?

You find me dreadful and unfortunate and some kind of cultural Jesuit. I find you at worst a tad over zealous in defending your corner. I just don't understand where this bile is coming from. That said Dreadful Cock is a great name for something. You have inspired me. Yours, DC

PS In the end I suspect all this goes to do is prove the point of the person who started the thread in the first place. Not the first person to be questioned for valuing the mainstream when posting on a board hosted by a former pop star.
stray
stray
2057 posts

Edited Oct 04, 2013, 14:54
Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 14:32
IanB wrote:
stray wrote:
I still think you're a dreadful cock with more than unfortunate opinions though. Also, whats worse, your opinions and attitude is actually the real problem that you're wailing against but you can't see it.


But you can?

You find me dreadful and unfortunate and some kind of cultural Jesuit. I find you at worst a tad over zealous in defending your corner. I just don't understand where this bile is coming from. That said Dreadful Cock is a great name for something. You have inspired me. Yours, DC

PS In the end I suspect all this goes to do is prove the point of the person who started the thread in the first place. Not the first person to be questioned for valuing the mainstream when posting on a board hosted by a former pop star.


Hang about, I'm not the one whose proud to be elitist. I've always hated any form of elitism, particularly in the arts. If anyone is proving bildings points its your incoherent opinionated and honestly elitist babble. I'm not the one who said you may think you've found a gem but you probably haven't. How do we value these gems we perceive, ask you to check them out ? I'm not the one who insulted someone who gave my work a good review. I'm not the one who belittled a wide movement to attempt an alternative approach to getting work out there (CC Licence) purely cos it doesn't make money. I could go on but your posts are in this thread so there is no need.

Edit : Incidentally on the CC front an NC licence doesn't mean it has to remain an NC licence. The creator of the work can grant a commercial licence and get paid on a case by case basis. The point is, with an NC licence, or more properly a BY-NC-ND licence, your work can be copied around with no bullshit. You always have to be credited and nobody can legally make money off it unless you let them.
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 14:53
stray wrote:
IanB wrote:

That said I think creative commons has a lot of conceptual merit. I just need someone to explain to me how art that needs forces greater than a bedroom studio is going to get made and at the same time the infrastructure existing and the artists and other contributors not starving in the process. That for me is the unanswerable question while capitalism prevails.


Agreed. But the laptop is the most powerful and most personal musical instrument ever made (quoting someone else there). You can plug other things into one as well. Also check the bloody link I posted, climb the fuck out of your judgmental tower of bitching and try to listen to something and what CC artists are saying and doing. In fact, a hell of a lot of the Jazz and Improv music scene has now gone over to CC.


A lap top can help produce some amazing things that would be all but unachievable with another set of tools. It is a classic example of tech driving how music is made. Can it do what a string quartet or a big band can do where each individual part is loaded with the performer's personality and interpretation? No? Or vice versa? Not so much.

A useful lap top might set you back what for few a years of useful life? You can probably buy one on HP and get the outlay down to £50 a month over three years or less. Depending on what software you are wanting to use and whether you pay for it or not. That's not bad value for what you can produce with it, if you can get a line of credit of course or have the cash to go for a s/h model.

The same amount of money might, if you are fortunate afford you a studio space for two or three days where you can usefully record larger musical forces. That is before the musicians are paid anything. Let alone union scale. And if you want to make music with real people on that kind of scale then you have some decisions and sacrifices and probably some compromises to make.

Now if you think choosing to work with larger forces is itself elitist and if you think one should choose the creative tools that expose you to the least amount of market interference then we shall have to agree to differ.

I am probably not going to admire music more because the artists chose a particular route to distribute their work. I might admire them more as people but I don't think an ethical form of distribution / commodification is in itself something that will necessarily denote a good experience for the listener.

When I have time I will have a listen.
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Oct 04, 2013, 15:21
Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 15:17
stray wrote:
I'm not the one who insulted someone who gave my work a good review. I'm not the one who belittled a wide movement to attempt an alternative approach to getting work out there (CC Licence) purely cos it doesn't make money. I could go on but your posts are in this thread so there is no need. Edit : Incidentally on the CC front an NC licence doesn't mean it has to remain an NC licence. The creator of the work can grant a commercial licence and get paid on a case by case basis. The point is, with an NC licence, or more properly a BY-NC-ND licence, your work can be copied around with no bullshit. You always have to be credited and nobody can legally make money off it unless you let them.


Fuck. This reminds me of polytechnic politics circa 1980. I think you're at worst misguided. You want to make it personal to degree that I find odd.

Anyway either I can't write or you are deliberately misrepresenting me.

I don't like the politics of CC because at heart many of its exponents that I have conversed with do not seem to respect any other way of working. They see other ways of working as an act of submission to capitalism and the market. At best.

I do not think I have insulted anyone (except maybe you accidentally). I thought one or two reviewers flattered the first record in particular and heard things in it that I really could not. Hopefully they listened between the lines to what we were trying to do and were being kind. I wouldn't argue with the Uncut reviewer who said bits of it were pedestrian either. I can't remember ever trumpeting a good review here. Would that have been preferable?

And presumably you have never considered the music consumer's capacity for suspension of disbelief? I am sure you must have wondered what someone else was hearing in something they love but is absolutely mystifying to you. Could that not be down to the fact that the actual activity of searching out and buying the artifact might be satisfying in itself and that the actual music could not help but be enjoyable with that kind of opiated thrill behind it? It happens. I know it has happened to me. The rock industry has relied on that impulse from the most active consumers for as long as I can remember.
stray
stray
2057 posts

Re: Regular Non obscure music
Oct 04, 2013, 15:27
IanB wrote:

I am probably not going to admire music more because the artists chose a particular route to distribute their work.


Nor would I, please don't miss the point. The point is there is a scene, an outlet, a distribution method, that has been doing okay for several years where experimental and riskier music has found a happy home. Its a far easier way to get noticed, meet like minded artists and audiences, than trying to play with national or niche music press. It's also an environment where it's easier to thrive, as you're not waiting on a ridiculous release schedule, you can move on and develop new work and new sounds as fast as you like.

However, a lot of dance/electronic related netlabel releases are 'phoned in'. It is no different to the normal commercial channels in that regard. YMMV. The point is they are hubs to find things, a lot easier than trawling through soundcloud or bandcamp accounts.

Also read up on how the CC licence actually works, because you have the wrong idea about it. CC works can still be used commercially and generate money for the artist if they want. Mostly thru licencing (soundtracks for promos etc), but there is nothing to stop anyone from also selling their CC work on physical CDs/Vinyls or whatever. Nor does it stop anyone for asking for donations (which quite often netlabels that use Bandcamp to host ask for). It does mean people are free to copy and distribute the work with your name on it, or not if you chose a non BY kind of licence.

Your maths regarding laptops and studio hire/recording is way off, but never mind. Also the benefit of being able to work when you like, with whoever you like, cannot be overrated.
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