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Moon Cat
9577 posts

Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 22, 2009, 15:28
Sounds like a 'you had to be there' thing. I'm quite into the Black Sheep/KMSA stuff but I can understand why it can be as off putting to some as it is engaging to others.

The one 'Cope-ular' element I'm missing more than melody and song structure from all this Black Sheep stuff is Julian's sense of humour. I was listening to a bootleg of one of his solo tours from years gone and the intersong banter was really engaging and funny. I understand that the Black Sheep thing is supposed to evoke a sense of protest and rage, and I can hardly blame anyone for taking that path in this day and age. But I do miss the more absurd side of Cope at the moment. On the busking tour bits I saw there was a bit of the 'Old Julian' bantering with the folk in attendance, but it's missing from the music at the moment.

Still, I guess he is attempting to highlight issues and point people in the directions of alternative modes of thought and behaviour, which is at least a bit more than the plain "Wuaaaaaaargh!!" misanthropy and nihilism that pervades other music I like. Mind you, it IS fun listening to an unholy racket even if the lyrics were saying "I hate skimmed milk" or something equally banal.
MARTASE
MARTASE
559 posts

Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 22, 2009, 15:29
Awwwww... now I wish I'd GONE.

Lovely stuff...Shambolic Glory.
Ziggypop
Ziggypop
297 posts

Edited Sep 22, 2009, 19:28
Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 22, 2009, 19:25
suave harv wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:
. . why ask me to explain how I feel then?


I didn't. You said that people who didn't enjoy the gig didn't get 'the joke', and I asked you to explain it. I was being a bit flippant because I don't like people saying "you didn't like it because you just don't understand".

We've all got ears, we can decide to like music based on our own evidence in our lug-holes. Not because there's a reason to like something, and only when we're privvy to that information, can we then appreciate the art. That's the elitist way.

Ziggypop wrote:
Were you at the gig?


Nope.

Now I can understand your comments. I was just making it known that I enjoyed the gig for what it was and it was exactly what I expected. Many in the crowd thought it was some kind of joke as they only know of JC from his pop career. Mabey I was wrong to employ some irony in my post but my intention was to stimulate some debate, as we are on a fan site, to what peoples feelings are to Black Sheep and not come across as an elitest.
suave harv
suave harv
704 posts

Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 22, 2009, 20:23
Ziggypop wrote:

Now I can understand your comments. I was just making it known that I enjoyed the gig for what it was and it was exactly what I expected.


No problem Ziggy, I appreciate your post. Mine came across a bit judgemental when I read it this morning, I hope you realise I was not having a pop.

I've seen Copey many times over the years, and knew the gig would be an 'experimental' thing, so I didn't even entertain attending it, as it's so not my thing. It would be for the 'Burst Couch' crowd, who like that sort of stuff. Whaatever I might think about 'sonic collage' it's everyone's option to enjoy what they want. Some people like pot-holing, I don't get that either, but hey, do as you will and harm none and all that.

Off on a bit of a tangent, I think you can go round in circles with this stuff. People who like left field stuff being called elitist, and people who don't being labeled narrow minded (I see it's happened again to me on this thread, oh well, I should just keep my trap shut I suppose), but I know where I stand on this type of stuff. No-one will ever convince me that this type of art-noise will reach the emotional heights (or lows) of a well crafted piece of proper music.

See, when I go to a gig I don't want to be 'challenged'. I want to be entertained. I have enough challenges in real life thanks. I don't want my 'perception of music challenged' by a wall of noise. I want to be inspired and uplifted, or moved in some human way. Failing all that, the urge to dance will do!

Remember that first Jesus And Mary Chain album? That's as far as I go with noise. It worked well there, because there were perfect pop tunes underneath (listen to the Headless Heroes doing Just Like Honey if you can find it, sublime!). Take away the tune and it's just noise, and for that I can go to any foundry or quarry or engine room. Put it on a stage and you might well be making a statement, and yea, you can call it art if you want, or 'sonic soundscape', that's a good one. But music? Naaah.

That's me Mr popular again. I'll get me coat.
dodge one
dodge one
1242 posts

Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 22, 2009, 20:33
Your sentiments are mine exactly. So don't get put off about what others say. It's your opinion, Right? I've made my thoughts known about Julians stuff. I thought{and still do} that his 90's output {in particular} was brilliant. The kind of stuff that i will enjoy into my dotage. But since? Nah.....But that's the thing. Some folks are such uber fans, that i am convinced they would shell out for a disc of an hours worth of Julian Farting in a repeating loop. Kind of like Lou Reeds 'Metal Machine Music'. You either know that shit is deplorable crap, or you will defend it as an artistic 'STATEMENT' to the teeth. Not me.
Regards.
Ziggypop
Ziggypop
297 posts

Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 22, 2009, 21:35
suave harv wrote:
Ziggypop wrote:

Now I can understand your comments. I was just making it known that I enjoyed the gig for what it was and it was exactly what I expected.


No problem Ziggy, I appreciate your post. Mine came across a bit judgemental when I read it this morning, I hope you realise I was not having a pop.

I've seen Copey many times over the years, and knew the gig would be an 'experimental' thing, so I didn't even entertain attending it, as it's so not my thing. It would be for the 'Burst Couch' crowd, who like that sort of stuff. Whaatever I might think about 'sonic collage' it's everyone's option to enjoy what they want. Some people like pot-holing, I don't get that either, but hey, do as you will and harm none and all that.

Off on a bit of a tangent, I think you can go round in circles with this stuff. People who like left field stuff being called elitist, and people who don't being labeled narrow minded (I see it's happened again to me on this thread, oh well, I should just keep my trap shut I suppose), but I know where I stand on this type of stuff. No-one will ever convince me that this type of art-noise will reach the emotional heights (or lows) of a well crafted piece of proper music.

See, when I go to a gig I don't want to be 'challenged'. I want to be entertained. I have enough challenges in real life thanks. I don't want my 'perception of music challenged' by a wall of noise. I want to be inspired and uplifted, or moved in some human way. Failing all that, the urge to dance will do!

Remember that first Jesus And Mary Chain album? That's as far as I go with noise. It worked well there, because there were perfect pop tunes underneath (listen to the Headless Heroes doing Just Like Honey if you can find it, sublime!). Take away the tune and it's just noise, and for that I can go to any foundry or quarry or engine room. Put it on a stage and you might well be making a statement, and yea, you can call it art if you want, or 'sonic soundscape', that's a good one. But music? Naaah.

That's me Mr popular again. I'll get me coat.


That's all fair comment and was really what I wanted my original post to stimulate. I've been a huge Cope fan for many years myself and find the Black Sheep project a bit alienating and challenging, the best bit being the Artwork to the releases and the chaotic display live, even the power cut added to this, but is Julian trying to alienate or challenge his fans or the people that don't really care eitherway?. As for the politics behind it all it's a bit by numbers for me or put another way preaching to the already perverted.
keith a
9302 posts

Fa-Fa-Fa-Fart
Sep 22, 2009, 22:00
dodge one wrote:

Some folks are such uber fans, that i am convinced they would shell out for a disc of an hours worth of Julian Farting in a repeating loop.


Too right!

However, I've just checked the merchandiser and it's not available.

Yet.
MARTASE
MARTASE
559 posts

Edited Sep 23, 2009, 00:13
Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 23, 2009, 00:12
dodge one wrote:
Your sentiments are mine exactly. So don't get put off about what others say. It's your opinion, Right? I've made my thoughts known about Julians stuff. I thought{and still do} that his 90's output {in particular} was brilliant. The kind of stuff that i will enjoy into my dotage. But since? Nah.....But that's the thing. Some folks are such uber fans, that i am convinced they would shell out for a disc of an hours worth of Julian Farting in a repeating loop. Kind of like Lou Reeds 'Metal Machine Music'. You either know that shit is deplorable crap, or you will defend it as an artistic 'STATEMENT' to the teeth. Not me.
Regards.


Is it really that black and white? Surely its a matter of perception. 'Prejudice' of varying kinds pervades everything unless we challenge it in ourselves. Take for example 'War/Peace' (often mentioned in these threads) from KMSA- tis easy to judge/slag/laugh off/get 'bored with' aint it? Cant say I've listened to it MANY times myself but given the right mental state it can have an extraordinary psychic effect on the listener.Well this one anyway. Same has to be said of 'Metal Machine Music' I think. Ofcourse on one level its just crap! But was Lester Bangs duped when he proclaimed it to be one of the most important records of all time?

Ofcourse opinions vary but to polarise the thing into either recognising the 'truth' or being a duped defender of the Artist's pisstake ( sure Julians having a BIG laugh at all those defending his recent'deplorable crap')is NOT WORTHY OF THIS SITE! But hey... Freedom of speech and all....

Sorry people this whole thing has got my goat.

x
dodge one
dodge one
1242 posts

Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 23, 2009, 00:36
You seem rather oddly insistant that other people see things the way that you do. I'm 47 years old and have a music collection that between the 78's, 45's, E.P.'s, 33 1/3's, 8-tracks, Cassettes, and C.D.'s numbers well over 7000 items. {AND, i would like to add.....not 1 illegal down-load amongst the lot} I think i have enough of a data-set to reference to, to decide the merits of 'Metal Machine Music' {of which i have an original copy on CASSETTE that i bought on initial release} or any number of other artists release's from the 20th century, completely on my own. Thank-you.
Despite what the fuck LESTER BANGS had to say about any of the lot.
If he thought a slowly varying oscillator pitch over the course of a mind numbing hour was some type of significant work.......well....what can one say?
But have a nice day.
MARTASE
MARTASE
559 posts

Re: Black Sheep @ the Bristol Festival
Sep 23, 2009, 00:50
dodge one wrote:
You seem rather oddly insistant that other people see things the way that you do. I'm 47 years old and have a music collection that between the 78's, 45's, E.P.'s, 33 1/3's, 8-tracks, Cassettes, and C.D.'s numbers well over 7000 items. {AND, i would like to add.....not 1 illegal down-load amongst the lot} I think i have enough of a data-set to reference to, to decide the merits of 'Metal Machine Music' {of which i have an original copy on CASSETTE that i bought on initial release} or any number of other artists release's from the 20th century, completely on my own. Thank-you.
Despite what the fuck LESTER BANGS had to say about any of the lot.
If he thought a slowly varying oscillator pitch over the course of a mind numbing hour was some type of significant work.......well....what can one say?
But have a nice day.


Sorry mate it was your suggestion that you had some kinda OBJECTIVE grasp on what is worthy or not that got me. I'm not insisting that people see things as I do at all. Only for open mindedness and a willingness to challenge ones own prejudices. I've found Cope's output of late particularly helpful in this respect and for that I thank him.

x
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