Head To Head
Log In
Register
U-Know! Forum »
Jesus I despise Brexit.
Log In to post a reply

Pages: 73 – [ Previous | 162 63 64 65 66 67 | Next ]
Topic View: Flat | Threaded
nigelswift
8065 posts

Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 10:57
I hope it's true too, but a lot of swivel eyes said they wouldn't vote this timeas a "protest" which is a measure of how stupid many are, and analysis shows Remainers had a higher propensity to vote. All we need is a repeat of those two phenomena in a People's Vote and we'd be home and dry!
veneta1
223 posts

Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 11:09
grufty jim wrote:
nigelswift wrote:
Exactly, Remain parties clearly won (boo to them for not having a common standard) yet the Beebs lead headline is "Clear win for Brexit Party".

Some talk of Labour shifting now though ....


I'm about as anti-brexit as it gets, but I've seen this "Remain (parties) won" thing on social media today and it's just not true.

Based on this BBC-sourced chart that was going round on twitter under the "REMAIN WON!!!" banner...

Clearly anti-brexit parties (Green, Lib Dem, Plaid, SNP, Change UK) got 40.4%

The Brexit Party got 34.9%

The tories (who are clearly a pro-brexit party) got 9.1%.


That means it was 44% Vs 40.4% in favour of Brexit.

And you simply cannot assume Labour's 14.1% was an anti-brexit vote (much as I wish we could). There's just no way of knowing how many of those Labour voters would turn out for "remain" in another referendum. I don't think Labour's equivocation is doing anyone any good at all, but that's where they are, and counting a Labour vote as a Remain vote isn't justifiable right now (IMO).



I'm sorry but I just don't agree with your analysis (and we're very obviously on the same side here). I live in a post industrial northern town that would be classed as mainly white working class and which voted, by a large majority, to leave in the 2016 referendum. Last Wednesday I attended my local Labour Party meeting and I was interested to see how the numbers for Leave and Remain would stack up when the subject of Brexit came up. I figured there'd be some passionate and intense debate on the subject. What transpired was that everyone in attendance, and there were between 40 and 50 people there, were strongly for Remain. And I mean everyone.

So, erring on the side of caution, let's divide the Labour vote in half and if you do that then Remain clearly won, 47.4% to 44% in favour of Remain. However, I would hazard a guess that Leave voting Labour voters will have been seduced by Farage and the Brexit Party and that those voting for Labour were mainly Remainers who voted out of loyalty to a party that, in all other respects apart from Brexit, reflects their political views.

Just my 2 penneth on the matter.
nigelswift
8065 posts

Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 11:15
Actually, the whole stunt is subtly wicked: I know that area, the event was in Sutton Coldfield which includes very affluent pro-Remain districts so ostensibly they'd chosen a very Remain area for their vox pop, for once. But that's merely how it appeared. In fact, the location was right on the border of Walsall, one of the most Brexity places in Britain. Don't tell me that wasn't a deliberate ploy.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 12:38
You may well be 100% correct. I was just pointing out that interpreting the EU election results as "Remain Won" involves a huge amount of assumption.

For the avoidance of doubt; I was not suggesting "Remain Lost" or anything of the sort; just that those results don't provide nearly enough information to make _either_ claim.

Obviously (as someone at the actual meetings) you would have a much better feel for sentiment in northern Labour constituencies than I would. But what I'm reading and hearing (based on articles and vox-pop interviews carried out by the Irish media - which is most certainly not pro-Brexit) from places as wide apart as Holyhead and Sunderland is not very hopeful.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited May 28, 2019, 12:40
Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 12:39
That said; I still think the most likely outcome will be for Brexit to be cancelled. I'm just not sure how we get from here to there.
nigelswift
8065 posts

Alastair Campbell expelled for pro Euro vote
May 28, 2019, 12:41
Like Campbell or not, final proof Labour is controlled by a small gang of obsessive ideologues of which Jeremy must be one

https://twitter.com/campbellclaret
nigelswift
8065 posts

Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 12:46
I think the problem is that the Labour Man on the Manchester Omnibus is not the same as the man at the Labour party meeting.
veneta1
223 posts

Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 13:48
Agreed, but I would hazard a guess that the Labour Man on the Manchester Omnibus is more likely to have voted for the Brexit Party.

Can't remember where I saw it but apparently there's some research that reckons that, as far as the European elections are concerned, 20% of Tory voters and 60% of Labour voters can be counted in the Remain camp.

I would admit I'm guilty of trying to find the merest sliver of a silver lining in this giant shitshow. It really is the 'gift' that never stops giving.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1093 posts

Re: Alastair Campbell expelled for pro Euro vote
May 28, 2019, 15:57
But ok for corbyn to congratulate galloway for winning in Bradford against labour candidates?

Alastair PEOPLE’S VOTE Campbell
?
Verified account

@campbellclaret
Follow Follow @campbellclaret
More
4. Plenty of precedent of members voting for other parties/causes. Some are now senior Party staff. Approach also contrasts with our era when TB was being pressed by whips to withdraw whip for JC and others for persistently voting against @UKLabour in Parliament, and he said No
12:20 pm - 28 May 2019
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 18:54
I'm reluctant to argue for a second referendum for a whole bunch of reasons. I fully understand those that do, and I don't speak against another referendum by any means. I just don't think it's the optimum solution.

A second referendum in the current climate could turn out to be just another exercise in lies and manipulation (I mean... does it look like anything has changed structurally in the UK since the first one?) There's no guarantee it will be a victory for Remain (though I understand the urge to look for the silver lining in polls and election results that suggests it might be), and in some ways even a narrow Remain win wouldn't deal with the real problems.

I'll be honest -- as a hardcore anti-brexit guy -- even I get exasperated sometimes and listening to that new Brexit Party MEP (Claire Fox) talking about her party "marching to Brussels to destroy the European Project", I found myself thinking "oh just leave then for fuck's sake!"

Think about what the non-anglophile Europeans are thinking when they hear that kind of tosh.

Europe can't afford as many MEPs (from Poland, Hungary, Italy and the UK) who are actively anti-European. It's so important right now that we deal collectively with global issues like climate change, populism in its many guises (crypto-fascist politicians in the EU and Islamist recruiters in Sudan have so much more in common than they'll ever know), the United States having a nervous breakdown on the international stage, and all the basic issues of equality and alleviating poverty that should actually be on the agenda.

Only genuine common purpose and collective action truly has even a slight chance of dealing with that stuff -- and having a quarter of Europe's parliament actively undermining common purpose and collective action is unhelpful.

I'm not saying we need "group-think" but I do believe when it comes to dealing with something as serious as climate change (for example), having active spoilers whose only intention is to hinder collective action is unacceptable.

Which is why the optimum solution to Brexit is unilateral revocation of Article 50, a declaration that the referendum was null and void because it was plainly based on lies and misinformation, and a clear statement that the interests of the UK are best served by remaining a member of the EU.

The government (along with the mainstream opposition parties) should state that those who suggest leaving the EU would be a positive move are objectively wrong about that; it's not a political position, it's being incorrect. And 65 year old voters don't get to fuck up the future of generations because they have confused a lie with a political position.

The statement would acknowledge that the Brexit Party got elected and must remain as MEPs for this term, but that they got elected on lies, misinformation and the prejudices of the ill-informed. As such, they represent the very worst of what the UK has to offer the world, and in return the UK will voluntarily give up its EU rebate so long as a single Brexit supporter sits in Brussels.

(I'm not saying any of that has the remotest chance of happening. I'm saying it's what should happen).
Pages: 73 – [ Previous | 162 63 64 65 66 67 | Next ] Add a reply to this topic

U-Know! Forum Index