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Jesus I despise Brexit.
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tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Jul 23, 2018, 08:46
Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 08:44
Hi Nigel, I listened to something on Radio 4 last night (counting sheep sort of thing). This surprised me. As you are a committed Remainer, I would be interested to hear your view. Personally although have great anxiety about it, I don't have entrenched views on Brexit - am willing to listen to all points of view.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b9zvtf
nigelswift
8112 posts

Edited Jul 23, 2018, 10:03
Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 09:11
Hi June,
Well I've never been guilty of idealising Europe. I know it has massive faults. But the right wing drift is happening here too and IMO Oswald Moseley's audience is still here and if ever someone like him reappears he'll be followed.

On the other hand, politics is a pendulum, it will swing back, both here and in Europe (and America) eventually.

My objection to Brexit isn,t about that though. It's the fact it's the defeat of the young - both their opinions and their aspirations. That's what makes me so bitter - our generation has had it all but our children will have far less - what a legacy to leave them.

And actually, extreme right wing movements arise from deprivation so if Brexit makes great swathes of our country poorer Moseley WILL be back. The author warns Remainers that Europe is drifting to the extreme right but what's the betting that a couple of years post-Brexit, with people blaming conditions on both May and Corbyn (with some justification) Britain will be more right wing than almost all of Europe?

(Sorry to be so damn opinionated, as S would say. But I feel the country has been robbed).
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 13:03
nigelswift wrote:
Hi June,
Well I've never been guilty of idealising Europe. I know it has massive faults. But the right wing drift is happening here too and IMO Oswald Moseley's audience is still here and if ever someone like him reappears he'll be followed.

On the other hand, politics is a pendulum, it will swing back, both here and in Europe (and America) eventually.

My objection to Brexit isn,t about that though. It's the fact it's the defeat of the young - both their opinions and their aspirations. That's what makes me so bitter - our generation has had it all but our children will have far less - what a legacy to leave them.

And actually, extreme right wing movements arise from deprivation so if Brexit makes great swathes of our country poorer Moseley WILL be back. The author warns Remainers that Europe is drifting to the extreme right but what's the betting that a couple of years post-Brexit, with people blaming conditions on both May and Corbyn (with some justification) Britain will be more right wing than almost all of Europe?

(Sorry to be so damn opinionated, as S would say. But I feel the country has been robbed).


Nigel, you are as opinionated as much as I am, but we are on the opposite sides of the fence and I just tend to keep myself to myself and don't try to push my beliefs as hard as you do as the simple fact is that neither of us really know what the outcome is actually going to be. I read (yes, selecting an article like you do to strengthen your case) that 90% of our trading is outside of the EU anyway so we'll soon make up that ground and have all the pieces in place already. Did you not think that from Day 1 big business would have been out there setting up deals with the rest of the world from the moment we left? Of course they have, but of course it is not reported by the media, especially the BBC that are a disgrace. We, the leavers, have nothing much to whinge about other than what the dreamers make up, so just let things go along leaving just the Remainers to have all the say which is never good but pleasers the media no end! All the phoney 'polls' claiming this and that out of a handful of people is a joke. The only poll to believe is when all 60 odd million of us take part in it.
And I certainly don't get personal with members of the Government that I don't even know other than through the OTT media. As for Theresa May, what that woman has had to go through and still is, is quite remarkable. Your lot have put obstacles in front of her over and over and bad-mouthed her continually - but she's still there. I don't know anyone in Government or from any other party that could have handled all of that.

It is patently obvious by now that we are likely to leave without a deal which personally I will be delighted with. Business has worked on this possibility from Day 1 and ready to go. With the USA promising to trade with us along with the rest of the world we are home and dry.

That's all I have to say. Feel free to accuse me of flouncing out again but I don't have the need to keep posting one mail after another like you do. Please understand that.

Thank you
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 16:00
Sanctuary wrote:
It is patently obvious by now that we are likely to leave without a deal which personally I will be delighted with.



Jeremy Hunt
?Verified account @Jeremy_Hunt
3h3 hours ago
Excellent discussion with German Foreign Minister @HeikoMaas about the unintended geopolitical consequences of No Deal. Only person rejoicing would be Putin...

(and Sanctuary!!)
Rhiannon
5290 posts

Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 17:36
you missed this bit
" in the end we would find a way not just to survive but to thrive economically. But my real concern is that it would change British public attitudes to Europe for a generation"

Surely he means a no deal brexit would change British public attitudes to the Tory party for a generation? Or maybe he's just got his fingers in his ears lalalala
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 17:50
Is he preparing the ground for blaming the mess on Europe's intransigence, as predicted?

I doubt that will work long term, people would be much more likely to blame those who said the bus was the truth and the new trade agreements would be the easiest in history.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 17:56
Just one point, regarding the trade figure of 90% you quote.

The latest (July 2018) report from the Office of National Statistics:

"The UK imported 55% of its goods from EU countries, but exported 51% of its goods to countries outside EU in the 12-months to May 2018

When looking at UK goods imports, 55% came from EU countries, while 51% of UK goods exports were to countries outside of the EU in the 12 months to May 2018. The EU and non-EU split for imports of goods remained the same as the previous 12 months to May 2017, although the amount the UK exports to countries outside of the EU fell slightly, from 52% in the 12 months to May 2017 to 51% in the 12 months to May 2018."

So the percentages are nearer 50/50.

Here's the government's latest figures by value:

"EU, taken as a whole is the UK’s largest trading partner. In 2017, UK exports to the EU were £274 billion (45% of all UK exports). "

When you look at the regions, the Northeast is the biggest exporter to the EU. 59% of the NE's exports go to the EU ( the NE also gets 60% of its imported goods from the EU. The Southwest is lower at 46% export and 44% import.

Also, the amount we export to both EU and non-EU countries is falling, but the amount we export to non-EU countries is falling more. According to the ONS:

"The largest contributor to the £2.0 billion decline in exports to non-EU countries was a £1.6 billion decline in exports of machinery and transport equipment, most of which is due to falling exports of cars."
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Jul 23, 2018, 20:31
Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 18:08
Thanks for taking the time to answer Nigel. Have just listened to John Gray's broadcast again and, although aware of the rise in right wing, nationalistic politics in eastern and other European countries I didn't realise it was growing so fast.
My anxiety levels remain high.

(edited)
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: A Point of View
Jul 23, 2018, 18:19
PS 1.

No deal doesn't help with things not covered by WTO. WTO covers goods and services.

There's no WTO for cross-border healthcare, citizens’ rights, travel, flights, science collaboration, medicines, nuclear, defence and security amongst other things.

PS 2:

No deal doesn't fix the pesky issue of the Northern Ireland border. I know leavers don't care that NI voted by a much larger majority to remain, but they should note that WTO rules require closed borders between WTO members but the Good Friday Agreement will not allow there to be a hard border. The EU would still have to maintain its side of the border. That would require check of goods coming into Ireland from the UK. One solution would of course be for a united Ireland inside the EU.
nigelswift
8112 posts

All we need now is another million like him
Jul 24, 2018, 10:21
"A very sad day for me as I watched my father, a proud man, saying sorry to his grandchildren after finally realising what his vote for Brexit will do to them."
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