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Jesus I despise Brexit.
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nigelswift
8065 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Feb 20, 2019, 13:55
grufty jim wrote:
So I'm watching as a bunch of rich fucking liars in the UK rip apart MY country, and watching as 52% of the UK population goes along with this bullshit for reasons that look mostly like xenophobia to me...... So am I angry? I'm fucking livid. And sorry if that leaks into my posts sometimes.


Every word, every syllable, every letter of that reflects how I feel. "Liars" and "fucking livid" being the two strongest feelings.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Feb 20, 2019, 13:59
My final word on the Honda thing. I'm still seeing people insist that it had nothing to do with Brexit. Apparently the CEO of Honda said so in a press release.

I wonder how many other corporate press releases those people take at face value?

Much more instructive is to delve a little bit deeper than the PR machines of government and corporations... this, for example, makes a fascinating read:
PDF File

It's a statement submitted by the Honda Corporation to the UK's Business, Energy, and Industrial Strategy Committee on the subject of "Leaving the EU: implications for the automotive industry". It's from last year.

It makes no mention of "global consolidation" and in fact makes it clear that the UK operation will be a part of the conversion of electric vehicles (i.e. they had plans to switch from petrol to electric at Swindon).

Most of the document, however is spent detailing the difficulties that Brexit will cause its business.

I am not saying Brexit is the only reason. But people saying it's not a major reason are simply not bothering to look at the facts. You can't read that document; which is basically Honda warning the British government about the negative consequences of Brexit a year ago; you can't read it and not think Brexit is a MAJOR factor in Honda's decision.

And as I say; they even warned the government a year ago. So whatever the CEO says now in a press release might be worth taking with a pinch of salt.
nigelswift
8065 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Feb 20, 2019, 14:10
I should probably add, for completeness, I'm pretty fucking livid not just with the rich liars but also with people who used "take control" as a cover for racism and who now remain wedded to Brexit come what may, still because of racism.
tjj
tjj
3588 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Feb 20, 2019, 16:01
I've read the Honda PDF File 2017 and yes, I cannot dispute it does seem Brexit is a big factor - although the tariff free trade deal between Japan and the EU must have influenced Honda's change of direction.

I got involved with this discussion to defend the Honda workers and Swindon as a town. I understand, not sure from where (might be here) all the Honda employees were advised by their management to vote Remain. They've done nothing wrong.

This morning I heard Ken Clarke on the radio refer to the right wing nationalists in the ERG and as you probably know by now, three Conservative MPs have left the party saying it has been taken over by said Right Wing Nationalists.

I'm very sad about the fact Northern Ireland has become a political football in all of this - I will be staying in County Antrim for a week in a couple of months time. I would like to think things will have settled down by then but I very much doubt it.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Feb 20, 2019, 17:05
Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Feb 20, 2019, 16:50
tjj wrote:
I've read the Honda PDF File 2017 and yes, I cannot dispute it does seem Brexit is a big factor - although the tariff free trade deal between Japan and the EU must have influenced Honda's change of direction.

Absolutely. As I've said a few times, Brexit is unlikely to be the only factor in the decision; but people insisting it had *nothing* to do with Brexit are doing my head in. They are either happily ignoring the facts (and not bothering to look into them) or else are actively trying to obscure those facts. And there's a lot of that about, and I find it utterly reprehensible.

I've no anger with ignorance. But I do get mystified when people think a public forum is the right place to dump it. If someone wants to believe the earth is flat or that Honda Swindon is "diesel only"... against all easily-available evidence... then they're welcome to do so.

But if they state that as a fact in public (or even as a likely truth from a trusted source) without doing a basic bit of research first, then I'm less and less patient with that behaviour. Our society is being ripped apart by "fake news" and lies before our very eyes. Not just on Brexit; but so much utter bullshit is being fed into the internet, and it's damaging us all.

People can usefully discuss whether Honda's move was "largely because of Brexit" or just "partly because of brexit"; but the internet is now full of people saying it has NOTHING to do with brexit because Honda's CEO said so, or because of some lie on social media about diesel.

If Honda's CEO had said "this is because of brexit"; literally EVERY brexiteer would be insisting that corporate press releases can't be trusted and the statement is politically motivated. It doesn't matter who says what, it's "true" (and the person saying it is 100% reliable) if - and only if - the statement agrees with my existing beliefs.

That's a bloody awful test of Truth. And it leads to very dark societies.

tjj wrote:
I got involved with this discussion to defend the Honda workers and Swindon as a town. I understand, not sure from where (might be here) all the Honda employees were advised by their management to vote Remain. They've done nothing wrong.

We will agree to differ here. I think those that voted "leave" DID do something wrong. I think a leave vote, without first giving deep consideration to how that was going to impact the peace process in Ireland was incredibly reckless, selfish and displays -- yet again -- that the UK appears incapable of acting like a decent neighbour towards Ireland.

Nobody who voted Leave in England gave the slightest thought to how it would impact others. If you want to vote to leave the EU, that's not "wrong". If you want to vote to leave the EU without first working out how that's NOT going to fuck over your neighbours, then that *is* wrong.

------------
EDIT: I said "UK" there in the 2nd last paragraph. This is largely an English thing (I'm of the Fintan O'Toole view that Brexit is driven largely by English nationalism) so maybe that should be "England" not the UK.
nigelswift
8065 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Feb 20, 2019, 18:22
"but the internet is now full of people saying it has NOTHING to do with brexit because Honda's CEO said so"

Yes. It's ego protection.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Brexit from Ireland - a thought experiment
Feb 20, 2019, 18:52
Earlier in this thread I suggested that those who voted Leave had done something actually "wrong". I realise that may not sit well with some people, so I want to set up a very brief thought-experiment...

Imagine the people of Ireland held a referendum. Obviously it's a separate state, so British people would not be eligible to vote.

But imagine the outcome of the referendum nonetheless had a MAJOR impact on the UK. Imagine this decision, made by a narrow majority of the Irish electorate, resulted in a significant hit to the British economy. It resulted in job losses, people being fearful for their livelihoods, people uprooting families, real damage to British people who had no part in that decision.

Imagine serious, intelligent, knowledgeable people warning that further down the line, this decision by the people of Ireland could very well result in social unrest, violence, bombings and murders on the streets of the UK.

Now that you've imagined all that, I want you to tell me, hand-on-heart, that the people of Britain would not be utterly outraged at the temerity of the Irish inflicting this damage on them.

Tell me they'd be insisting that "the will of the Irish people" be respected even if it damages us in Britain. tell me all about how sacrosanct democracy is... even when many of those affected by a vote are ignored, marginalised and silenced.

You want to know what I think... I think the British people would be outraged and furious. I think The Sun would be suggesting that the Irish decision was an act of hostility not unlike Republican terrorism; and the Daily Mail and its millions of readers would be demanding Theresa May send in the troops and launch airstrikes against Dublin.
nigelswift
8065 posts

Re: Brexit from Ireland - a thought experiment
Feb 20, 2019, 19:11
I agree.
All of the above.
You needn't be tentative about your hypothetical. It would be a total certainty.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Feb 20, 2019, 20:34
Insurance company, Aviva, has just got British High Court clearance to move £9 billion out of the UK into its Irish subsidiary.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-idUKKCN1Q81YW

The move is "timed for 2259 GMT on March 29".

No doubt something to do with diesel though. Or global restructuring maybe. The timing's just a coincidence.
nigelswift
8065 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Feb 21, 2019, 07:33
I don't think there's room for denial that the Brexit uncertainty is having a bad effect - on England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Europe and the World and the blame for that lies squarely with the 52% to start with and now the anti Europe hard right and anti Europe hard left.

Most of the culprits put salve on their guilt by citing Project Fear but Fitch has today put UK's Double A credit rating on negative watch (it was triple A four years ago) and if that gets lowered it will reduce the prosperity of every man. woman and child in the country. So Project Fear won't wash and Farage, Fox and the other near criminals are running out of plausible deniability. Could we eventually have a Truth and non-reconciliation commission with prison sentences for the leading liars?
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