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nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 10:13
Brilliant!
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 10:14
As ever very witty but not helpful - lines like 'we'll starve the paddies again' are just not funny. My mother was Irish so I guess that makes me half Irish and believe me I have made a point of learning about Irish history at the hands of Britain. I really don't blame the Irish for experiencing a sense of schadenfreude at the mess Britain has got itself in, I've no doubt the Irish sharp wit is being honed at our expense. So be it, I remember the first time I stood up and objected to an Irish joke ... you don't hear those jokes any more. The shoe is on the other foot. As well as being half Irish, I'm also half English and like almost everyone in the UK at the moment, we are bewildered and, when you hear stories about people becoming violent over food shortages, not a little scared. And like most other 'ordinary people' we have stopped expressing our pointless opinions and are waiting, hoping all will be well.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 10:19
tjj wrote:
As ever very witty but not helpful - lines like 'we'll starve the paddies again' are just not funny.


That's right. They aren't. Which is why Tory politicians maybe shouldn't say them, right?

You think I made that up? Have you even been following the news on brexit?
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Mar 10, 2019, 10:23
Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 10:22
Are you aware that Priti Patel, the UK's Minister for Overseas Development publicly wondered why the possibility of food shortages in Ireland post-brexit "has not been pressed to our advantage in negotiations with the EU"?

A goddamn government minister raised the spectre of The Famine as a potential negotiating strategy with the EU.

And you're suggesting it's MY PARODY of that which is unhelpful?

Seriously?
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Mar 10, 2019, 10:32
Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 10:31
Also, can we be clear. There is NO schadenfreude here in Ireland. But it does not surprise me that even now after the last 3 years, the UK population has no real understanding of what's happening here in Ireland.

God forbid anyone should click on a news website with a dot-ie domain.

But to be clear... here in Ireland the figures demonstrate that our economy will be hit HARDER than the UK's by a no-deal brexit. Right? Are you aware that's the figures we're being presented with here.

Why do you think anyone is feeling schadenfreude about that?

A dear friend of mine lost his job because of brexit a couple of weeks ago. He's looking at Australia as a possible destination for him and his young family. Why am I feeling schadenfreude about that?

On top of the economic and social harm... we're reading a LOT of stories over here about the return of violence to OUR streets because of a decision made in the UK.

AGAIN.

Car bombs on OUR streets. Why are we feeling schadenfreude again?

I think you missed the tone there, tjj. The people of Ireland are fucking furious (and terrified) at what is being imposed upon them by their bullying neighbour YET A-FUCKING-GAIN.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 11:00
grufty jim wrote:
Also, can we be clear. There is NO schadenfreude here in Ireland. But it does not surprise me that even now after the last 3 years, the UK population has no real understanding of what's happening here in Ireland.

God forbid anyone should click on a news website with a dot-ie domain.

But to be clear... here in Ireland the figures demonstrate that our economy will be hit HARDER than the UK's by a no-deal brexit. Right? Are you aware that's the figures we're being presented with here.

Why do you think anyone is feeling schadenfreude about that?

A dear friend of mine lost his job because of brexit a couple of weeks ago. He's looking at Australia as a possible destination for him and his young family. Why am I feeling schadenfreude about that?

On top of the economic and social harm... we're reading a LOT of stories over here about the return of violence to OUR streets because of a decision made in the UK.

AGAIN.

Car bombs on OUR streets. Why are we feeling schadenfreude again?

I think you missed the tone there, tjj. The people of Ireland are fucking furious (and terrified) at what is being imposed upon them by their bullying neighbour YET A-FUCKING-GAIN.


Quite. History should mean Britain should treat Ireland with more respect than other countries. I'm not in the least offended by terms like "starving paddies", whoever said them as I have relatives lying in the graveyard at Kilglass, Roscommon who died probably for that exact reason in the 1840s. People in that village still remember the famine and it's a source of constant amazement to me how much good will they have to Britain. But Britain is just taking the piss with them.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 11:42
I honestly don't think Ireland expects or wants any more respect than anyone else. It's just having to settle for far *less* irks a bit.

I think I've said this before here, but I'm not sure anything shocked me in my entire life as much as moving from the Irish school system into the British system (albeit not in the UK... but if you want an English-speaking school in most of the non-English-speaking world you get to choose between UK curriculum and US curriculum... my parents chose UK :)

Anyway, I can still remember my shock at how differently The Famine is viewed / treated (or not!) by the "history" being taught in schools. It's something I've discussed at great length with all my close English friends because it's a genuine perfect Case Study in how history can be unhealthily "relative".

And I'm genuinely not claiming Irish schools have "the right version" of history. We have our own biases over here. And some of them are insane. But even so, the fact that most English people have never heard the name "Sir Charles Trevelyan" is mind-blowing to an Irish person. It's such a bizarre white-washing of history that automatically we get very suspicious of anything else an English person might have learnt about Ireland.

Can you imagine if Irish schools taught the history of the 1970s and 1980s but literally never mentioned Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinness? Or if they did... it was such a brief, "in passing" reference that nobody remembered those names after they left school. "What else are they dumping down the memory hole?" you would ask with some justification.

Trevelyan is the man that the British Crown placed in charge of alleviating The Famine. He was the most important British figure in Ireland during that period and only the Irish seem to remember his name (he's name-checked in that most famous of famine songs, "The Fields of Athenry"... "for you stole Trevalyan's corn, so the young might see the morn, now a prison ship lies waiting in the bay").

Trevelyan would make public pronouncements in London claiming that the British Empire "would see to it that the Irish will never be allowed to starve". Meanwhile, private letters have since shown him to be an incredible anti-Irish bigot who viewed the Irish as fundamentally savage and believed (I quote):

"the judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson"

Far from preventing the Irish from starving, Trevelyan oversaw a significant increase in food exports from Ireland to mainland Britain during the 5 year period in which almost 20% of the Irish population died of starvation.

That should be part of the history curriculum for everyone on these islands. But then... I *would* say that ;-)
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 11:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKH1vbl1b1g
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 13:18
grufty jim wrote:


Thank you, I have seen/heard that before and it is shocking every time. One of my best books is 'Star of the Sea' by Joseph O'Connor which was an education for me. I took my mother to Cobh while she was still alive and we paid our respects to those starving people who sailed from Cork Harbour. Anyone, anyone who has knowledge of the Irish Famine would feel rage at the British Government of the day but it is you who is raising the spectre of the Irish Famine - I have heard food shortages discussed but as yet not in respect to Ireland. I'm not going to get into a further dispute with you over this because its just reinforcing the awful shouty hostility that prevails at present. Like I said in my earlier post I am watching (yes, I do follow the news - thank you for implying I'm an uninformed thickie) waiting, and hoping to whatever grumpy god is out there it gets resolved soon.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Mar 10, 2019, 13:45
Re: National humiliation in the national interest?!
Mar 10, 2019, 13:44
I don't want to argue about this either. But you are wrong here. You aren't just implying -- you are stating outright -- that *I* am the one raising the spectre of The Famine. That I am the one deciding to link that tragedy to brexit. Which would be a pretty vile thing to do right? It's a vile thing you're accusing me of, right? And I agree.

Except it's not me doing it, is it? It's a tory front-bench minister. Just three months ago. Very loudly. And THAT's what I was referring to, which I assumed was obvious.

I used an admittedly exaggerated and satirical phrase (though no worse than you'll hear even on mainstream comedy shows here in Ireland). But all I was doing was referring to something vile that was said by a member of the British government about Ireland.

So why is it *me* "raising the spectre"?

It's not like I'm even the first one to condemn it. This is old news. That spectre was well and truly raised on the floor of the House of Commons by someone called Theresa May...
May condemns Priti Patel's remarks about using food shortages in Ireland for a better Brexit deal

Bobby McDonagh (Irish ambassador to the UK for 4 years) raised the spectre of The Famine too...
Priti Patel’s boorish Brexit comments showed ignorance about Ireland. She’s not alone

Ireland's Commissioner to the EU brought up the subject out of nowhere...
Phil Hogan: If Priti Patel wants to starve the British people, this is how to go about it

Except none of them did. Like me, they were clearly *condemning* those who would do that. Most notably a member of the British government.
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