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How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
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grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 10:54
Angry? Because the UK has to follow the rules?

The Guidelines for the European Capital of Culture are very clear. They are down in black and white, and Britain helped draft them. But you feel Britain merits an exemption?

Why exactly?

Every third year there is an ECOC from an EFTA/EEA country, a candidate country or a potential candidate to EU membership. It uses the same criteria with a few administrative differences (call and rules of procedure issued by the European Commission and designation by the European Commission).

From: (source)

So by the rules of the system, 2023 has been set aside for an EU member (which Britain has chosen to no longer be in 2023).

It could apply as a non-EU member for one of the "1 in 3" years; except those slots are only open to EFTA/EEA members, or those applying to be EU members. There is every chance, based on the current statements of your own government, that the UK will no longer fulfil any of those criteria in a couple of years.

But still you're angry about EU "dog in a manger" attitudes? I just don't get it. Why do you feel you can leave a community and then feel aggrieved when you no longer have access to the benefits of that community? Or feel angry when the community fails to make special exemptions to its own rules for your benefit?

Brexit has resulted in some odd attitudes in the UK.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2553 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 10:59
tjj wrote:
nigelswift wrote:
Politics apart, how depressing is this?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/23/eu-rules-british-cities-cannot-be-capitals-of-culture
So much for "we may be leaving the EU but we'll still be part of Europe".


I sort of feel angry rather than depressed about this. Geographically the British Isles are part of Europe and it feels a bit 'dog in the manger' on behalf of the EU to do this. I particularly feel for Northern Ireland (actually Ireland as a whole) and Scotland as both countries must feel more and more on the edge of everything. What to do?


Independence!
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2553 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 11:00
grufty jim wrote:
Angry? Because the UK has to follow the rules?

The Guidelines for the European Capital of Culture are very clear. They are down in black and white, and Britain helped draft them. But you feel Britain merits an exemption?

Why exactly?

Every third year there is an ECOC from an EFTA/EEA country, a candidate country or a potential candidate to EU membership. It uses the same criteria with a few administrative differences (call and rules of procedure issued by the European Commission and designation by the European Commission).

From: (source)

So by the rules of the system, 2023 has been set aside for an EU member (which Britain has chosen to no longer be in 2023).

It could apply as a non-EU member for one of the "1 in 3" years; except those slots are only open to EFTA/EEA members, or those applying to be EU members. There is every chance, based on the current statements of your own government, that the UK will no longer fulfil any of those criteria in a couple of years.

But still you're angry about EU "dog in a manger" attitudes? I just don't get it. Why do you feel you can leave a community and then feel aggrieved when you no longer have access to the benefits of that community? Or feel angry when the community fails to make special exemptions to its own rules for your benefit?

Brexit has resulted in some odd attitudes in the UK.


Scotland voted to stay, as did NI, surely they have to treated differently.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 11:25
drewbhoy wrote:
Scotland voted to stay, as did NI, surely they have to treated differently.


Unfortunately not.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck.

Legally, the EU can't treat Scotland and Northern Ireland differently, and you know that. Leastways not without the consent of Westminster.

What's more -- it shouldn't be able to! I like the EU and I'm a proud European citizen, but I don't think the EU should be able to reassign territories from one nation state to another. Down that road lies madness.

So no; Scotland and NI cannot be treated differently even though many of us (me included) think it would be better, in this instance, if they were. The general principle is more important.

To be blunt, Brexit has made me furious. And more so every day when I see the bumbling incompetence and outright contempt for peace and stability in my country being displayed by British politicians.

The EU has already proposed a special exemption for Northern Ireland; allowing it to remain in the Customs Union and even the Single Market. This has been roundly rejected by the UK government and their DUP partners.

Any "different treatment" has to happen with the consent of London, and London won't give it.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2553 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 11:58
grufty jim wrote:
drewbhoy wrote:
Scotland voted to stay, as did NI, surely they have to treated differently.


Unfortunately not.

The whole thing is a clusterfuck.

Legally, the EU can't treat Scotland and Northern Ireland differently, and you know that. Leastways not without the consent of Westminster.

What's more -- it shouldn't be able to! I like the EU and I'm a proud European citizen, but I don't think the EU should be able to reassign territories from one nation state to another. Down that road lies madness.

So no; Scotland and NI cannot be treated differently even though many of us (me included) think it would be better, in this instance, if they were. The general principle is more important.

To be blunt, Brexit has made me furious. And more so every day when I see the bumbling incompetence and outright contempt for peace and stability in my country being displayed by British politicians.

The EU has already proposed a special exemption for Northern Ireland; allowing it to remain in the Customs Union and even the Single Market. This has been roundly rejected by the UK government and their DUP partners.

Any "different treatment" has to happen with the consent of London, and London won't give it.


So Britain ignores Scotland. Fantastic! Time to bring SNP MPs home I think.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Nov 24, 2017, 12:08
Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 12:06
drewbhoy wrote:
So Britain ignores Scotland. Fantastic! Time to bring SNP MPs home I think.


My Scottish friends are all pro-Independence and so, by proxy, am I. However, I'm also of the opinion that Brexit has made the whole issue *way* more complicated. If Scotland had voted 'yes' in the Independence Referendum I don't believe a hard brexit, entailing an exit from the Customs Union, would have even been on the table. Just couldn't have happened.

But we are where we are. I personally feel the effects of Brexit, if it happens and if it's even remotely "hard", will be keenly -- and badly -- felt in Scotland and Northern Ireland (as well as everywhere else of course).

I think it has the potential; if Pro-Independence parties in Scotland and/or Republican parties in NI, play a blinder; to spark regional referenda within the next 5 years.

Whether the people of NI will vote for a united Ireland; or whether the Scottish people will vote for independence (and the potential for "border problems" of their own by then); is a whole other matter. But Brexit definitely lays the groundwork for further political upheaval.

==================================
NOTE: edited for spelling and clarity.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2553 posts

Edited Nov 24, 2017, 12:36
Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 12:20
grufty jim wrote:
drewbhoy wrote:
So Britain ignores Scotland. Fantastic! Time to bring SNP MPs home I think.


My Scottish friends are all pro-Independence and so, by proxy, am I. However, I'm also of the opinion that Brexit has made the whole issue *way* more complicated. If Scotland had voted 'yes' in the Independence Referendum I don't believe a hard brexit, entailing an exit from the Customs Union, would have even been on the table. Just couldn't have happened.

But we are where we are. I personally feel the effects of Brexit, if it happens and if it's even remotely "hard", will be keenly -- and badly -- felt in Scotland and Northern Ireland (as well as everywhere else of course).

I think it has the potential; if Pro-Independence parties in Scotland and/or Republican parties in NI, play a blinder; to spark regional referenda within the next 5 years.

Whether the people of NI will vote for a united Ireland; or whether the Scottish people will vote for independence (and the potential for "border problems" of their own by then); is a whole other matter. But Brexit definitely lays the groundwork for further political upheaval.

==================================
NOTE: edited for spelling and clarity.


I agree with all of that sir. If the Lab/Lib/Con pact and their far right and sectarian allies hadn't banded together things might have been different in Indy1. In the general election the Labour/Liberal actively encouraged its voters to vote Tory especially up here in Aberdeenshire, so you can understand a severe distrust of Corbyn and his lackies. In fact he is a Tory!

Addition.

Also I think in education it will be disastrous especially in rural places, Highlands and the Islands. Lots of schools, village halls etc are co funded by the Scottish Govt and EU working together.

edit.

In the Central Belt the Tories told their voters to cast their votes to Labour candidates.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 13:17
I read a funny little idea about some kind of "Federation of Independent Celtic States" which would comprise Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic as three independent EU member states, each with their own national parliament but with even tighter integration between the three than usual (collective electricity grid being the most obvious economic efficiency, but I'm sure there would be others).

And it's a nice thought, but in reality the sheer scale of the practical difficulties involved in Scottish independence alone... well, it makes any talk of future "federations" a bit moot.

Scottish independence -- from a logistical standpoint -- would have been relatively easy when the UK was a member of the EU. Now though, it's a logistical nightmare.

I'm still pro-Independence, but I think the Independence movement has a solid few years work on its hand to work out real answers to the questions of the border, future EU membership, currency and so on -- questions that either didn't necessarily even exist or which have gotten much more difficult with Brexit.

You don't want to find yourselves copying the madness of the tories and proposing a course of action you have no idea how to implement. It's just not good enough to make the decision first and then try and "muddle through". As we in Ireland have been trying to explain to the government in Westminster for 18 months -- vague platitudes and aspirational statements about "no return to the borders of the past" do not a policy make, and when your lack of policy threatens to damage your neighbours? That's just irresponsible and unacceptable.

The problem of how Scotland can leave the UK in a post-Brexit world is not insoluble. But it is a tough one. And right now, nobody has all the answers (or even most of them). That's the challenge facing the Scottish independence movement now.

Just as it's the challenge (albeit with plenty of local variation) in Northern Ireland, and in Ireland in general. Brexit has created a myriad serious problems. And the people who demanded Brexit are now acting like 3 year old children having a tantrum when we ask them how we might solve those problems. It shouldn't be up to the rest of us to work out how to enact a policy we never wanted... but the people who did want Brexit have abrogated all responsibility in actually implementing it.

They are either clueless or else bizarrely acting as though the very thing they demanded is now being foisted upon them against their will!

"We want nothing to do with your stinking institutions", they yell. And then cry foul and talk of "anti-British conspiracies" and "EU spite" when those institutions are relocated from London.

"We want nothing to do with any organisation that would make our cities eligible to be ECOC", they insist. And then claim the EU is acting maliciously when UK cities are no longer eligible to be ECOC.

It's like the UK has had a collective breakdown; and despite the massive number of "Remoaners", it's the brexiteers with their hands on the rudder right now and they are doing a lot of damage. So I'm afraid there's less and less sympathy and more and more apprehension, frustration and concern from Ireland and the rest of Europe.

And as for Corbyn? Don't even get me started!
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 13:20

I think it has the potential; if Pro-Independence parties in Scotland and/or Republican parties in NI, play a blinder; to spark regional referenda within the next 5 years.


It all looks like it's ripe for a break up of UK but that particular horse left the stable the night of the referendum. All the stuff about "get over it", "the people have spoken" is never going to be heeded.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 13:25
nigelswift wrote:
It all looks like it's ripe for a break up of UK but that particular horse left the stable the night of the referendum. All the stuff about "get over it", "the people have spoken" is never going to be heeded.


I truly can't comprehend this "People have spoken" attitude. Haven't they noticed we regularly change governments? The UK didn't just have one election back in 1695 and insist it was "Whigs from now on... the people have spoken!"
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