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thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6138 posts

Re: It seems to me
Feb 01, 2017, 13:27
Applause. It's always struck me as odd that pro-Leave people cite "austerity" as an EU creation. Whatever the situation in Greece was and is, austerity in this country is an ideologically driven Tory creation, building on firmly Thatcher's "no such thing as society".

Leaving the EU (and with it the European Convention on Human Rights, which I don't recall being mentioned on the ballot paper) pushes us all further into the clutches of a Tory government with no handbrakes on. Not to mention the looming likelihood of US "investment" into the NHS, etc. Taking back control, eh?
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Edited Feb 01, 2017, 14:58
Re: It seems to me
Feb 01, 2017, 14:57
Voting 'leave' was no more voting for Nigel Farage than voting 'remain' was voting for George Osborne.
I did not vote Farage, I am sure you did not vote Osborne.
Those two are just the difference between shite and excrement.
Anyway, Farage was on Loose Women the other day FFS, we really have nothing to worry about from *him*.
And as you say the coffers are drying up.
There are some elements of the press and elsewhere that just-does-not-get-it.
We are not all 'EU citizens', but everyone is told they are and that they ought to be ashamed for even questioning it.
There are millions of adults in the UK who have neither a driving license or a passport.
They barely have the means to move freely from one town to another let alone 'around Europe'.
The ones who are referred to as 'the poor', and pitied to death. Sort of. When it suits. Yer Owen Jones is one of the biggest culprits there I'm afraid.
Now does leaving the EU mean 'the poor' will suddenly have more money etc etc...
No, of course not. And I am sure millions voted leave who did have a driving licence and a passport etc.
But it ain't that simple, people have been condescended to and patronised for so long something had to give.
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Feb 01, 2017, 15:58
Re: It seems to me
Feb 01, 2017, 15:43
To applaud people voting "leave" because they feel patronised and because the leave vote was a chance to throw a fire extinguisher off the metaphorical roof of society onto whoever was stupid enough to be standing underneath and going about their business strikes me as highly dangerous. If that was the case then they've been had. Again. Though the difference between this and all the other occasions they have been had is that this time it opens the door wide to all kinds of misery for folks in the exact same boat as them, suffering from the same problems and often worse but now exposed to redefinition as less than rather than equal to.

It's like the armchair revolutionary fools that abstained two GEs ago thinking they were protesting Blair and Iraq when all they were doing was putting the people they claim to care about in mortal danger. And lo people died and are still dying. And will continue to die in a myriad of ways as their rights, services and protections are eroded. But hey that's ok cos we're out from under the imaginary European jackboot and we've got all manner sovereignty to keep us warm. BTW I hated the Blair government and voted Corbyn twice but didn't vote Corbyn to hand the Tories a free pass for the rest of the century.

I guess ultimately it depends whether you see the exploitation of the working class as something that you can fix or something you can mitigate given a long enough go on the tiller. The leavers just handed the Tories a 50 year reign to do what the fuck they like and in just a single generation's time those same Tories can happily blame the "excesses" of their former leaders in forcing austerity through like so many Politburo twats decrying Stalin's "excesses" while still wiping the blood off their own boots. They will decry it and continue the same policy via different means. It will be endless and it will be merciless but you'll still be able to fill a carrier bag in Primark for 50p.
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Edited Feb 01, 2017, 16:04
Re: It seems to me
Feb 01, 2017, 16:01
Being a bit metaphorical yourself Ian.
I was talking more brass tacks.
'The poor'.
And we won't have 50 years of Tories.
Why would we?
Ignore class politics if you must, but it is the elephant in the room is it not?
EDIT: And please, we had workers rights well before the EU.
And the EU does NOTHING to address the fact many of its member states have minimum wages on a par with that of a 14 year old doing a paper round.
What am I missing?
Sin Agog
Sin Agog
2279 posts

Edited Feb 02, 2017, 07:05
Re: It seems to me
Feb 02, 2017, 06:18
sanshee wrote:
Being a bit metaphorical yourself Ian.
I was talking more brass tacks.
'The poor'.
And we won't have 50 years of Tories.
Why would we?
Ignore class politics if you must, but it is the elephant in the room is it not?
EDIT: And please, we had workers rights well before the EU.
And the EU does NOTHING to address the fact many of its member states have minimum wages on a par with that of a 14 year old doing a paper round.
What am I missing?





It would be economic disaster if the E.U. forced every country to abide by the exact same minimum wage. Why should countries with such different requirements as Norway and Bulgaria have the same minimum wage when the euro buys very different things in each country? In my opinion they should be taking Britain and other richer countries' fees and pumping them even more into countries like Bulgaria to our exclusion, but it's because they do this at all that many here wanted to leave. More metaphors: "The safety net requires a finer meshing, so let's take it away altogether."

The working classes have been rattled and harried by years of forced austerity and crazy housing prices, and then they've been told that the source of all their troubles is the proverbial other. Of course people will leap at that. Europe and immigration are tangible menaces, rather than the more elusive free market and policies of the double-talking Tory government. Just because they've been convinced that the answer to their problems is picking on other working class people doesn't mean you're being a patronising snob by saying they're wrong. And really, I'll take a bit of patronising over the kind of Saxon pigheadedness I see on constant display in this country. You know that 'patronising' line is some manipulative sophistry anyway, in the same way that people use 'respect for the dead' (such as Thatcher) as a means to enforce their line of thinking. "If you don't cater to my fragile little ego by agreeing with me exactly, you're being an elitist. There's no chance that your thoughts on Brexit are based on compassion and sympathy for those who'll be hurt by it; it's simple elitism."

Here's some elitism (from the poorest member of this forum), but what if a good chunk of the working class who voted for leaving were too busy actually working to figure out what they were voting for? What if, the more indentured they are into constant work to pay off an escalating mortgage, the easier they are to manipulate? People knew something wasn't working and change was needed, but went and changed the wrong bloody thing. Now I pay almost double the price of groceries when I can barely afford enough to eat as it is. People who don't share end up with nothing worth keeping. And if this wasn't about race, it was most certainly about miserliness.
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Feb 02, 2017, 09:29
Re: It seems to me
Feb 02, 2017, 09:07
Quite. The bigots doth protest too much that it was about anything but race (this in a nation where 1m people voted BNP ffs in an election with a staggeringly poor turn out). And those suckered into responding to unexamined prejudice will cling to any spurious economic argument to maintain the illusion of righteousness.

That's not everyone but it was enough people for those who voted out in good faith to be now seeking an intellectual get out of jail card for fear of being tarred with Nigel's brush. Or they tough it out "good old Trump sticking it to the Muslims' etc.

The only succor I can take is that the Brexit mob running the grand con can't put people on the streets in any numbers. Never have. Never will.

And I say this as the grandson of a migrant who was locked up twice in this country for carrying an undesirable passport despite having been here since the previous century and being even more undesirable in his former homeland. My Hornsey born grandmother had her nationality actually withdrawn between 17 and 47 for being married to an alien. They knew all about mob justice at the hands of ordinary working patriots. Businesses burned down, innocents beaten in the street, children sent to relatives under assumed names for their own protection. In London. You think it wont happen to you and then it does and then it's too late.
spencer
spencer
3029 posts

Re: It seems to me
Feb 02, 2017, 12:58
Good post
Sin Agog
Sin Agog
2279 posts

Re: It seems to me
Feb 02, 2017, 13:14
Yeah, though I think this all calls for a Four Yorkshiremen interlude. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
dhajjieboy
913 posts

Re: It seems to me
Feb 02, 2017, 13:27
So....
Where does 7-8 Billion of us go from here?
Sin Agog
Sin Agog
2279 posts

Re: It seems to me
Feb 02, 2017, 17:38
Your gaff at six.
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