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Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4787 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn/Home and Dry?
Aug 11, 2015, 07:46
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-10/labour-leadership-mp-jeremy-corbyn-has-surged-to-a-32-point-lead-poll-suggests/
stray
stray
2057 posts

Re: Alastair Campbell ...
Aug 11, 2015, 10:19
thesweetcheat wrote:


Oh well. Thanks for adding some more support to Corbyns campaign Mr Campbell. When are these twats going to realise that they're 'oh noes, the sky will turn red and rain frogs if Corbyn wins' pronouncements are having the complete opposite effect to what they intend. As they're as universally despised by those who will actually be voting as any face on the Tory front bench is.

All we need now is a confused rivers of Trotskyists turning investment banks into creche's speech from David Blunkett.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Alastair Campbell ...
Aug 11, 2015, 14:21
stray wrote:
Oh well. Thanks for adding some more support to Corbyns campaign Mr Campbell. When are these twats going to realise that they're 'oh noes, the sky will turn red and rain frogs if Corbyn wins' pronouncements are having the complete opposite effect to what they intend. As they're as universally despised by those who will actually be voting as any face on the Tory front bench is.

All we need now is a confused rivers of Trotskyists turning investment banks into creche's speech from David Blunkett.


It continually amazes me that so many members of the New Labour Project - a party that elevated spin and presentation to hitherto unseen heights; that relied on perception above policy more than almost any other in recent times - can possess such a singular lack of self-awareness.

It was like when Blair came out during the last General Election campaign... he genuinely believed he would gain votes for Labour. As opposed to - I suspect - driving those on the Labour left further towards Green and those on the Labour right further towards the tories. There is a serious* campaign to get the guy tried as a war criminal ferchristsakes; he is a million miles from the statesmanlike, unifying figure as which he has cast himself.

I still think Corbyn will end up splitting the Labour Party. And while that may well be the best thing for it in the long run; it could also be risky and go terribly wrong with what's remaining of the UK mainstream left splitting into factions as several visions of how to rebuild the party emerge.

Also, at the same time the lack of an effective left wing opposition may well allow the current British government to accelerate further their destruction of the welfare state. I believe this is a crucial period in terms of addressing some serious long-term problems for our culture - globally, as well as here in Western Europe - and it pains me to see these problems being ignored and/or intensified by a political landscape dominated by apologists for predatory capitalism.


-------------------------------------
* serious in the sense that a lot of people take it seriously; not in the sense that it might be successful.
stray
stray
2057 posts

Re: Alastair Campbell ...
Aug 11, 2015, 15:03
grufty jim wrote:

I still think Corbyn will end up splitting the Labour Party. And while that may well be the best thing for it in the long run; it could also be risky and go terribly wrong with what's remaining of the UK mainstream left splitting into factions as several visions of how to rebuild the party emerge.


Agreed, but if Corbyn wins the leadership I think there will be quite a long period when the right of the party will just stare into the headlights and fail to organise themselves at all.

Sure, they'll refuse shadow cabinet positions, and whine on a lot, but I don't think they're stupid enough to completely destroy the party. Or that they actually could destroy the party. The real split I think emerging is between the PLP and the Constituencies (the split with the Unions has been there for a very long time), and the Constituencies are taking advantage of the new democracy to force the PLP to address their concerns, their policies, ideologies and beliefs. It's not hard-left obviously, but it's definitely left. The great positive I can see coming out of a Corbyn leadership is that it could possibly move the overton window more to the left. That socialist ideas are not anachronistic.

A split between the parlimentary party and the branches/constituencies is not a new thing (the Tories have muddled on with the same split quite well after all through many years), but Labour has now given theirs power in the debate. Corbyns proposals are primarily to continue this approach into setting policy, from the membership up. I'm really, really looking forward to seeing the shape the next party conference takes if he is the Leader.

Although the question of the opposition being effective is a concern, it can't possibly be any less effective than it is now. Although I'm not sure about seeing Diane Abbot on a front bench again, she's an opportunist/careerist imo and I can't see her support of Corbyn as anything more than her glimpsing a possible shadow (and later a cabinet) position. What is at question is if Corbyn can hold onto the leadership going into the next election, because that would be interesting. I'd expect to see a much younger selection of candidates, and a large change in the makeup of the elected party if he did get that far. New New Labour.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4787 posts

Re: Alastair Campbell ...
Aug 11, 2015, 16:43
stray wrote:
grufty jim wrote:

I still think Corbyn will end up splitting the Labour Party. And while that may well be the best thing for it in the long run; it could also be risky and go terribly wrong with what's remaining of the UK mainstream left splitting into factions as several visions of how to rebuild the party emerge.


Agreed, but if Corbyn wins the leadership I think there will be quite a long period when the right of the party will just stare into the headlights and fail to organise themselves at all.

Sure, they'll refuse shadow cabinet positions, and whine on a lot, but I don't think they're stupid enough to completely destroy the party. Or that they actually could destroy the party. The real split I think emerging is between the PLP and the Constituencies (the split with the Unions has been there for a very long time), and the Constituencies are taking advantage of the new democracy to force the PLP to address their concerns, their policies, ideologies and beliefs. It's not hard-left obviously, but it's definitely left. The great positive I can see coming out of a Corbyn leadership is that it could possibly move the overton window more to the left. That socialist ideas are not anachronistic.

A split between the parlimentary party and the branches/constituencies is not a new thing (the Tories have muddled on with the same split quite well after all through many years), but Labour has now given theirs power in the debate. Corbyns proposals are primarily to continue this approach into setting policy, from the membership up. I'm really, really looking forward to seeing the shape the next party conference takes if he is the Leader.

Although the question of the opposition being effective is a concern, it can't possibly be any less effective than it is now. Although I'm not sure about seeing Diane Abbot on a front bench again, she's an opportunist/careerist imo and I can't see her support of Corbyn as anything more than her glimpsing a possible shadow (and later a cabinet) position. What is at question is if Corbyn can hold onto the leadership going into the next election, because that would be interesting. I'd expect to see a much younger selection of candidates, and a large change in the makeup of the elected party if he did get that far. New New Labour.




A new leader and a good old clear-out is the only way. I don't vote Labour but can see they have a major task ahead of them. They have no chance of winning the next election, but that's a good thing as they are going to need the time to reform. Come the following election and more and more Conservative hardships in the meantime and they will have a good chance if they play it carefully and sensibly.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Aug 11, 2015, 18:02
Re: Alastair Campbell ...
Aug 11, 2015, 18:01
Sanctuary wrote:
A new leader and a good old clear-out is the only way. I don't vote Labour but can see they have a major task ahead of them. They have no chance of winning the next election, but that's a good thing as they are going to need the time to reform. Come the following election and more and more Conservative hardships in the meantime and they will have a good chance if they play it carefully and sensibly.


I think you're right when you suggest a Labour rebuild will mean a likely Tory win in 2020. Trouble is; I suspect that might be a real tragedy for the UK. I think another decade of tory policy without any coherent opposition could do long-term damage to the fabric of the country. I think 10 years is plenty long enough for them to have effectively destroyed the NHS. And I have grave doubts that it will be possible to rebuild it from scratch; whoever succeeds them.

Having lived in the UK for quite a while - as well as in a fair few other countries - I've seen with my own eyes what all the statistics confirm... that the NHS is one of the best 3 or 4 health systems on the entire planet. And it is being enthusiastically dismembered by a government driven in equal parts by ideology and avarice. It's shocking.

And that's just the most visible wound being visited upon the UK by the tories. For them to be allowed rampage freely for another decade thanks to a lack of effective opposition does not bode well (in my opinion).

I believe western society is at a critical way-point. We face the onset of several different (though often interlinked) extended crises simultaneously. Despite the deniers, Climate Change is a serious problem and the decisions we make over the next two decades will be critical. At the same time resource depletion (primarily oil and fresh water) will lead to increasing global hardship, instability and ultimately conflict. Together, these are likely to result in unprecedented mass migrations of people.

I know I'm in a minority here; but I am very uncomfortable with the notion that our collective response to these problems is being shaped almost universally by right wing predatory capitalists.
dhajjieboy
913 posts

Re: Alastair Campbell ...
Aug 11, 2015, 20:20
grufty jim wrote:
I know I'm in a minority here; but I am very uncomfortable with the notion that our collective response to these problems is being shaped almost universally by right wing predatory capitalists.


Just curious,
Do you imply that most "here"{this site} are comfortable with right wing global leadership?
Or globally?
Also, what will you do{are you doing} to personally address your listed global concerns?
Everyone is blogging and recycling these days....what else ya got?
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Re: Alastair Campbell ...
Aug 11, 2015, 20:49
Campbell was easily swept aside by Clive Lewis (newbie mp) on the PM programme this evening. Campbell huffed and puffed but couldn't score any points. Lewis took a conciliatory and positive tack and Campbell sounded just like someone called in at short notice to defend the indefensible while on their summer holidays.
Locodogz
Locodogz
263 posts

Re: Alastair Campbell ...
Aug 12, 2015, 11:38
Hey Grufty - looks like (in Lawrence's absence - you've got a fan/stalker!!!!

Worst attempt at baiting I've seen for a while....
spencer
spencer
3044 posts

Deadline extended
Aug 12, 2015, 12:18
From 12-00 to 15-00 today, for those wishing to register/join and vote. (The website'd said it was 12-00pm.. I thought that was midnight. When's 12-00am then?)
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