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Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4787 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Aug 16, 2015, 15:28
Captain Starlet wrote:
So Gordon Brown's decided to weigh into the ring now, saying Labour should be electable?

Obvious point (for me) is that the reason why Labour lost under his watch and in 2015 was because Labour just weren't electable!


I suppose the obvious thing to ask is...is Jeremy Corbyn electable? By that I mean will Joe Blogs (and Mrs Blogs of course) vote for him at the next election, as so many voters seem to vote for a person rather than a party.
I voted for Blair when he first became leader as I got drawn in by his 'sincerity', but never got tempted again.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1049 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Aug 16, 2015, 15:33
Same here, but I'll vote for Jeremy as I truly believe that Labour need to ditch the toxic legacy of blair and the red tory moniker. With the other 3 that's pretty much all we're going to get, they already showed their colours during the Welfare bill by abstaining, and that is something people don't forget. What blair, brown etc don't seem to realise is that Labour right now are unelectable (partly) because people don't see them as any form of opposition or alternative. At least with Corbyn he's offering that, even if it is a step backwards,sometimes that's what's needed in order to get back going forward on the right track.
carol27
747 posts

Edited Aug 16, 2015, 17:33
Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Aug 16, 2015, 17:00
What I've loved about this whole thread is that I now believe that, in fact, losing a general election isn't as important as maintaining a genuine, active opposition. I know that in other areas of my life that winning in itself, for winnings sake can be disatisfying & non fulfilling.
I would rather listen to a genuine,intelligent, humanist man/woman, with what seems to me to be a well thought out & moral strategy,than a bunch of ex Etonian wankers! I'm well aware that my own prejudice is very obviously on display there; BUT they say nothing to me about my life!
Im also still sufficiently in love with human beings as a species, particularly the young, to believe that they'll grasp the difference in the long run. Of course, unfortunately, I've come a cropper on that notion on many occasions, but not all the time. I live in hope.
To re quote Tjj. Vote Jeremy Corbin. Viva la Revolution!
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6034 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Aug 16, 2015, 19:15
Absolutely agree. We have four and half years of Tory govt to look forward to, an articulate opposition asking searching questions is what's needed right now.

If Labour elect an anti-austerity candidate, there will also be support from SNP, Plaid and Green MPs in some votes, not enough to overturn a Tory majority following the Party whip, but enough to do so on some free votes and certainly enough to really open a proper debate rather than upholding the hopeless right of centre consensus.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Aug 16, 2015, 20:05
Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Aug 16, 2015, 20:02
thesweetcheat wrote:
Absolutely agree. We have four and half years of Tory govt to look forward to, an articulate opposition asking searching questions is what's needed right now.

If Labour elect an anti-austerity candidate, there will also be support from SNP, Plaid and Green MPs in some votes, not enough to overturn a Tory majority following the Party whip, but enough to do so on some free votes and certainly enough to really open a proper debate rather than upholding the hopeless right of centre consensus.


Agree totally with your first paragraph. Not so sure about the second. I still think a Corbyn leadership will see a flight of "new Labour" MPs away from the party. I certainly don't think the Parliamentary Labour Party will suddenly transform into 232 left-wing Corbyn followers.

I mean, as a group the Labour Party decided to abstain from the social welfare vote (on the grounds that "the country voted for it"... I wanted to grab each one of the abstainers by the lapels and shake them while shrieking "not the people who voted for you! The ones who elected you didn't vote for it! They very specifically opposed it! And that's why they voted for you... to oppose it!") Do you really think they will unite behind an unabashed leftist; behind someone who, when faced with the question "Are you a Marxist", doesn't scoff and act offended at the very idea, but takes the question seriously and provides a nuanced response?

I like Corbyn. A lot more than I thought I would when people first started talking about him as a serious contender. And while it may be a good thing in the long run; there's no doubt in my mind that Labour will lose more than a few MPs if he is elected. Perhaps not on day one... but by this time next year I'll be surprised if there are more than 180 Labour MPs.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6034 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Aug 16, 2015, 20:38
Yes, you're probably right about all of that, sadly. Maybe though some of the Labour MPs who are there for the right reasons (they're not all careerists, surely?) might see this as an opportunity to be part of a movement away from the Blairites though.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Jeremy Corbyn
Aug 16, 2015, 22:34
thesweetcheat wrote:
Yes, you're probably right about all of that, sadly. Maybe though some of the Labour MPs who are there for the right reasons (they're not all careerists, surely?) might see this as an opportunity to be part of a movement away from the Blairites though.


Absolutely. I'm sure (well no... I hope) there are plenty of Labour MPs who will embrace a return to genuine left-wing policies. But there will be a fair number who have spent the past 15 years putting as much distance between them and The Left as they could; and certainly not all of them will make the journey back.
spencer
spencer
3044 posts

Bloody Mandelson
Aug 17, 2015, 02:43
Somehow I've sensed it.....just wondered what the loathesome Mandelson was up to, googled 'Mandelson Corbyn' - do likewise - and found that the papers later today will be full of reports that Mandelson tried to persuade the other candidates to withdraw before the ballot papers went out, reckoning that this would cause the vote to be suspended, but officials said that withdrawal would cause Corbyn to win by default. I read the online Indy's version, can't bear to mention the other rags names. Reading the most recent posts here, yes, I think some MPs will go, and I do worry that the opposition front bench will have the keenest and clued up intellects. I do not know the calibre of outside-Parliament advisors that would be available to a Corbyn led party. Apparently Cameron's planning to blaze away with policy questions come September. Nonetheless I will be elated if Corbyn wins. He is right to want a reform of the party from the grassroots up, and I don't doubt this will result in a generational seachange and influx, something that the other parties will not be able to match. The reformed party will come good when - not if - the next financial crash happens, which I do not think is too far off, or maybe even before, when interest rates go up, which they must, and there is a large amount of mortgage default and resultant instability. The call to cancel the Trident billions will be deafening. But, oh, what decimation of things we hold dear will have happened before..
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Bloody Mandelson
Aug 17, 2015, 13:45
I'm genuinely surprised that the PLP have not conspired to remove all but one of Corbyn's opponents from the ballot to prevent a splitting of the "right wing" vote.

May yet still happen.
spencer
spencer
3044 posts

Re: Bloody Mandelson
Aug 17, 2015, 14:04
Finger ~ dyke (in a metaphorical sense)
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