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geoffrey_prime
geoffrey_prime
758 posts

Re: GROW UP!
Apr 08, 2009, 03:07
No I don't, but Turkey is moving in the right direction...and that should be encouraged.
You should recognise progress...and no change can occur overnight.
Lawrence
9547 posts

Re: GROW UP!
Apr 08, 2009, 03:11
Oookay. I find Turkey's word for it untrustworthy myself, after all the brutality they've wreaked on people...
geoffrey_prime
geoffrey_prime
758 posts

Re: GROW UP!
Apr 08, 2009, 03:17
Have faith. The gov. have some work to do..but "the people" will drive things forward..
mojojojo
mojojojo
1940 posts

Re: police thugs
Apr 08, 2009, 10:21
but..but..the protesters weren't weren't cracking heads with batons...th


oh forget it

x
Merrick
Merrick
2148 posts

Re: police thugs
Apr 08, 2009, 11:03
dave clarkson wrote:
Batons are always a last resort so I believe


that's very similar to another belief of yours.

dave clarkson wrote:
I don't believe, as you appear to suggest, that they purposefully go out of their way to knock people around.


I saw different dozens of times last Wednesday. I personally mopped the pissing blood from the head of a woman at the Heathrow climate camp who had been batoned for being beside a fence.

Of course, maybe I'm just a pathological liar whose mum ran off with a copper or something.

So, watch the film. The bit where the copper batons Ian Tomlinson from behind without warning. (1min 20sec)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

if that was 'one bad officer', why did none of his colleagues pull him back, or indeed respond in any way? Do you really think that was the only incidence of it that day and it just happened to be caught on video? Or does the casual manner in a calm environment imply it is common practice?

And, if it's one bad officer, they must be cloning themselves to do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJRi7YR1bU

This, I point out to you for the third time in the hope you'll actually watch it and consider what it shows (the clue is in the chant of 'this is not a riot') before asserting that this stuff doesn't happen.
pooley
pooley
501 posts

Re: police thugs
Apr 08, 2009, 11:25
Merrick wrote:
dave clarkson wrote:
Batons are always a last resort so I believe


that's very similar to another belief of yours.

dave clarkson wrote:
I don't believe, as you appear to suggest, that they purposefully go out of their way to knock people around.


I saw different dozens of times last Wednesday. I personally mopped the pissing blood from the head of a woman at the Heathrow climate camp who had been batoned for being beside a fence.

Of course, maybe I'm just a pathological liar whose mum ran off with a copper or something.

So, watch the film. The bit where the copper batons Ian Tomlinson from behind without warning. (1min 20sec)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

if that was 'one bad officer', why did none of his colleagues pull him back, or indeed respond in any way? Do you really think that was the only incidence of it that day and it just happened to be caught on video? Or does the casual manner in a calm environment imply it is common practice?

And, if it's one bad officer, they must be cloning themselves to do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJRi7YR1bU

This, I point out to you for the third time in the hope you'll actually watch it and consider what it shows (the clue is in the chant of 'this is not a riot') before asserting that this stuff doesn't happen.


All of those coppers are equally as guilty. I am a supporter of the police, and will defend them as much as humanly possible (sorry). But, these actions are an utter fucking disgrace.

When you add to that the fact that he wasn't even there as a protester (not that it would have mattered - what they did was wrong, be it a bystander, a protester, or Jack the fucking ripper) - it just defies belief.

I am a huge supporter of the ploice, have a very good reason to be, but these bastards need to be found and charged.

Drives me mad, I always talk about how good the police are, then something like this happens and makes me look a cunt (you don't need to agree there Merrick, me old buddy, i'll take it as implied!)
dave clarkson
2988 posts

Edited Apr 08, 2009, 12:31
Re: police thugs
Apr 08, 2009, 11:40
"This, I point out to you for the third time in the hope you'll actually watch it and consider what it shows (the clue is in the chant of 'this is not a riot') before asserting that this stuff doesn't happen."

Again your accusation, interpretation and assumptions are wrong...

1, I did watch it.
2, I believe that the police shown should be accountable and dealt with appropriately. This is very sad and they should be ashamed of themselves. I've never 'asserted' this sort of thing doesn't happen.
3, The clip has no barring on my continual view that the 'collective' force, I believe, don't, on the whole, purposefully go out to knock people around. I've been on plenty of marches and demos and not seen police brutality. You will have because you sound like you are on the front line in many instances when things get heavy and emotional.

My position is to positively find ways moving forward in trying to avoid this kind of stuff - not confrontation or division.

8)
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Apr 08, 2009, 17:38
Re: GROW UP!
Apr 08, 2009, 12:49
Jim Tones wrote:

U.K. Anarchists?
No such thing , more like Bone Idle Middle-Class Wankers who more often than not have a fear of proletarian folk if the truth be known!


Not sure if class or intellectual onanism are necessarily guaranteed signs of poseur Anarchism (especially as there's so much of it about) but there seems to be an awful lot of flag-following for a movement that is supposedly geared towards engendering a culture of self-administration.

I am all for people taking responsibility for their own shit and living in a loving, fearless, non greedheaded manner but few people have the bravery or the work-ethic for that much freedom. It's a little like the indie label thing. You have to work harder, with more intelligence and be more committed than those working within "the system". Independence is not a licence for extended periods on the sofa. Not unless someone else is paying for your sloth and if someone else is paying for it then you're just another cog in the capitalist gangbang. Which rather begs the question.

As for any latent Fear Of A Chav Planet not sure that's restricted to any one political movement. All political gangs strike me as being a bullwark against the fear of one imaginary group threat or another. If we were really intent on saving ourselves as a species then we'd be too fucking busy to worry about shit like that.
dave clarkson
2988 posts

Edited Apr 08, 2009, 13:11
Re: GROW UP!
Apr 08, 2009, 13:08
Well put and when indie labels do achieve a level of success after working hard, they are often then seen as the enemy!

I think one of the biggest problems in the UK is celebration of success or appreciation of hard work. It seems to go unrecognised and is often treated with cynicism and suspect. This i think leads to bad service and laziness which for example, is often very noticable when flying into Heathrow from anywhere in the world (yes I still use flights). I don't think we're generally a nation of happy folk.

8)
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Apr 08, 2009, 18:40
Re: GROW UP!
Apr 08, 2009, 13:34
dave clarkson wrote:
Well put and when indie labels do achieve a level of success after working hard, they are often then seen as the enemy!

I think one of the biggest problems in the UK is celebration of success or appreciation of hard work. It seems to go unrecognised and is often treated with cynicism and suspect. This i think leads to bad service and laziness which for example, is often very noticable when flying into Heathrow from anywhere in the world (yes I still use flights). I don't think we're generally a nation of happy folk.

8)


We're not a nation of folk who are always happy being happy or happy with other people's happiness yet we seem to be intent on sentimentalising childhood and animals and the countryside and ourselves without actually addressing real needs. Tony Soprano would be very much at home. Fear definitely loves this place though he/she gets around a bit.

In terms of creating a fairer society I think of the UK as no more and no less than a swing-state and it is the sum of individual daily actions that will determine the outcome. Protesting someone else's failures is not "doing" any more than you can win an argument with a baton. Real change comes with concerted individual localised daily effort not forming up in massed ranks behind a flag or a marching band and then going home again to await the next clarion call while the outcome is being determined elsewhere.

While there are many serious and committed people involved there are also people who seem to view the whole enterprise of protest either as an ad hoc version of Glasto with the addition of an Urban Warfare Tent or, some kind of hyper adrenilized, state-sponsored spectator sport. Which in some ways is exactly what it is.

With Dixon of Dock Green long since retired my guess is that the same kind of protests in the same kind of economic conditions would have produced a much more violent outcome in 1984 or 1986. Not that this excuses anything but there is little question in my mind that a non violent protester would have been at far greater risk at say Wapping or during the Miners' strike. Surveilance occasionally cuts both ways.

As with the football hooliganism of the 70s and 80s (which also combined flashes of sheer brutality with a lot of running away) it astonishes me that casualties are not much much higher. Luck? Restraint? Some tactical game-playing on both sides? A little of all three?

Either way I am not of a mind to debate Revolutionary Theory with anyone on the basis of whose victims were the most deserving of a beating. And there seems to be a lot of that about.
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