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the 'it' in bullshit
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Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: The U in music
Sep 17, 2003, 20:26
Hey I like you dude . . . we had some nice chatting on the first thread on this topic.

But at this point it seems to be going around in circles . . .

But then again, it's just a forum on a music website so what can we expect to come out of it? Finer minds than ours have kicked this football around for centuries without coming up with "The Answer."

Peace bro.
morfe
morfe
2992 posts

U Know
Sep 17, 2003, 21:46
"But then again, it's just a forum on a music website..."

U Know is a great resource and place to spread info, share the horrors and hopes in an all-too-often uncaring system. Also informs re: activism etc. From building a reed bed to supporting direct action (and activists) out in the real world , it's all been here, long may we and many more sail in here!


Peace be on your house also, I like you too (does Dick Emery chummy-punch) :-)
gorseddphungus
185 posts

Re: the 'it' in bullshit
Sep 17, 2003, 22:25
if you are referring to 'us anarchists' (what gave you that idea, may I ask??) in your second paragraph then read 'our' post again (and more carefully, please) I'll bother to rewrite the main part for you:
what china, the soviets and the US have in common is imperialism, nationalism and empire building -'capitalists or communists, they are only different in their economic systems';
prove us wrong or call 'us' anarchists again, cos that's what remains when you are neither pro-communist nor pro-capitalist, it seems...
cheers
XXX
GP
ron
ron
706 posts

Re: the 'it' in bullshit
Sep 17, 2003, 22:51
" And of course you've also got a few "anarchists" running
around here who will tell you the Soviets, China, N. Korea
et al and every state that ever defined itself as "Marxist"
and "anti-capitalist" was really "(state) capitalist" too."

geez... whos mixin metaphors now? ...an jus how many degrees in socialology deux u need to aquire a black belt...hmmm.....

"So if "capitalism" is everywhere at all times and places
and is the repository of all that is wrong in the world --
what is there left to debate?" ummm... how about how to kill it?

"It's like an evangelical ranting about Satan -- he's
everywhere and everything bad is his fault. So you can
say "Damn you Satan!" but then what?"... then nothing mate... christainity and satan and the boogyman, and the tooth fairy are all make believe characters that lived in a book of stories
by the pedophile brothers of the cloth... unlike the very real globalized capitalism that impoverishes, enslaves and oppresses regardless of color or creed...

"And I'm sorry my fancy words and attention to
"meaning" bothers you..." no worries on that mate i'm sure mumsy and daddy paid good money for your hard earned education, that i'm quite sure u r using to better the condition of your fellow humans... " all those degrees in sociology I have." uh yeah.... all that education... again....

"I'm increasingly thinking I should just stick to the
musical discussions around here . . ." dunno... kinda bettin' those are pretty crap as well...

x
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: the 'it' in bullshit
Sep 20, 2003, 04:39
I said:
"So if "capitalism" is everywhere at all times and places
and is the repository of all that is wrong in the world --
what is there left to debate?"

You said:

"ummm... how about how to kill it?"

So I reply: and that's the problem with your line of thinking -- how do you kill something that is everywhere in all places at all times without totally f*cking everything up and a lot of people dying in the process? With flowers and unicorns, and not guns and prison camps, I'm sure. I am down with evolution, not revolution. Moving forward, not going in circles.

"then nothing mate... christainity and satan and the boogyman, and the tooth fairy are all make believe characters that lived in a book of stories
by the pedophile brothers of the cloth... unlike the very real globalized capitalism that impoverishes, enslaves and oppresses regardless of color or creed..."

Define what you mean by "capitalism", and be specific.

I said:

"And I'm sorry my fancy words and attention to
"meaning" bothers you..."

You said:

"...an jus how many degrees in socialology deux u need to aquire a black belt...hmmm....."
"no worries on that mate i'm sure mumsy and daddy paid good money for your hard earned education, that i'm quite sure u r using to better the condition of your fellow humans... " all those degrees in sociology I have." uh yeah.... all that education... again....

I reply:

I can't help it if I use big words and get very picky about what terms mean when this subject comes up. I spent years reading very big books with very big words about these topics like "capitalism", "socialism", "communism", "marxism." Obviously we're not speaking the same language here. And I guess you don't want to expand the parameters of the way you think about these things. Dat ole devil capitalism gonna gitcha!

And finally:

"I'm increasingly thinking I should just stick to the
musical discussions around here . . ." dunno... kinda bettin' those are pretty crap as well...

And your reaction here is exactly why I said what I said . . . don't want some "political" yahoo dissin' my music because I didn't bob my head in unison with his "political beliefs."

Your post was just childish.
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: the 'it' in bullshit
Sep 20, 2003, 04:41
And PS:

I've never attended a "private" (expensive rich kids) school in my life. I paid for 5 of my 6 years of college with scholarships and doing shit like emptying garbage cans and driving a delivery truck.

Don't be so presumptuous.
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: the 'it' in bullshit
Sep 20, 2003, 04:59
Maybe I wasn't referring to what you said . . . this isn't the most user friendly forum, so it's hard to remember who said what and I don't want to dig around every thread sorting it out.

(As I recall) SOMEONE calling themselves an anarchist insisted that all the so-called communist systems were really "state capitalist" systems in disguise. That really muddles the whole notion of what "capitalism" is, doesn't it?

As far as anarchy being the antidote for cap vs. com, I'll repeat my view on the whole shamolian again:

Imagine an axis running from one pole X which represents "complete individual freedom in personal & economic matters" to another pole T which is "complete state direction of all personal & economic matters."

All "systems" that have existed in nations throughout history can be placed along this axis relative to each other -- though there has never been a system that reached either extreme. In other words, every specific "system" from the US to USSR to UK to China is a HYBRID OF X AND Y. They are differentiated by how much X and how much Y. Today North Korea is probably the most state-directed society. They are what has traditionally been called "communist". Countries like the US and UK are much closer to the "individual freedom" pole, they are what you like to call "capitalist" though democracy is another crucial element that is rarely discussed around here. In the middle are countries like France and Sweden, which you might call "social democracies" (or "soft socialist" or something.)

Dictatorships and theocracies base their legitimacy on things other than "rational economic science" (or whatever is supposed to be the source of the "capitalist" and "communist" ideologies.) For example: personal charisma, family/tribal allegiances, religion. But still you can place them on the axis in terms of state vs. individual control.

So where does "anarchy" fit in? I think it's the ideal "X" position -- complete and total individual liberty to the point where there isn't any state at all. Such a thing has never existed in the history of "civilized humanity" (meaning after we stopped being nomadic hunter-gatherers and settled down in villages and so on.)

Personally, I think it's a nice ideal but I don't see how it could work in practice. Human beings are capable of too much nasty evil crap, you need "something" to enforce some level of good behavior. Arguing that for some reason without a state or laws "people will be nice and share with each other" just doesn't convince me.
gorseddphungus
185 posts

Re: the 'it' in bullshit
Sep 20, 2003, 08:39
can't argue with that
except it would begin another thread on anarchy etc. you are then quite sceptical about anything other than capitalism, I can see that... without wishing to contradict what you said above, to improve things the only way I see is - I would get the few nice things that capitalism has to offer but reduce it all to the minimum expression of free trade in a free society, i.e. in the smallest possible communities without resorting to trans-national domination by huge companies. I don't see the point of paying tax for apples from, say, Corsica, when I can get them here.

cheers
XXX
GP
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: the 'it' in bullshit
Sep 20, 2003, 18:25
What I'm skeptical of is rants about "capitalism does this" and "capitalism does that." Capitalism used this way is just an ideological label. I am trying to get people to see it in more scientific terms -- things that can be quantified and measured, at least in relative terms. The USA has more individual economic and personal freedom than the USSR did -- any way you measure it. That doesn't mean the USA is the archetype of "capitalism" or vice versa.

There is plenty of "socialism" in the US system -- starting of course with "social security" which is the largest single expense in the federal budget (yes, even larger than the military or debt payments.)

As I see it all *realistic* discussions about politics & economy are debates about how much X and how much Y to apply to each specific problem to produce the most benefit for the most people. I don't see any way out of the X vs. Y continuum, unless you want to get metaphysical (like instead of "individual" or "state" control you might argue for "god control" -- but that's a whole nuther can of worms.)

Basically you could say I'm a political taoist -- to me it's all about finding the proper balance. ;-)
Lawrence
9547 posts

Re: the 'it' in bullshit
Sep 20, 2003, 18:49
Personally I'm not convinced that the US is any more 'free' than the USSR was.
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