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What is better than Capitalism?
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morfe lux
301 posts

Re: o bugger, another final point
Sep 10, 2003, 22:22
"It is a sick, evil systewm ,that means all but a very very lucky few get absolute shite all the time. It very very simply does not work, and needs to be changed."

What would you change and how? And who wants to change it?
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: War
Sep 10, 2003, 22:24
Thanks for the compliment. :-) Should move on to a new thread soon don't ya think? Pick what you think is the most interesting part of the many threads and post a new "discussion question" when you feel ready.

I read the anarchist article and was thoroughly unimpressed -- he talks about what "seems natural" but doesn't actually discuss what lessons we might draw from actually observing "nature."

As for Native Americans -- the tribes competed very hard against each other before (and after) "the white man" came. Nobody had to teach them about conflict. At any rate I was talking about humanity way before then, in the days before "language" and "civilization." I'm sure we were just like the apes -- competitive and status-driven. Which is basically the way it is now but with a more symbolic bent (shiny red Ferraris to attract the most desirable mate and so on.)
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: War
Sep 10, 2003, 22:34
"Yeah I got into a huge strop when i couldn't accept the denial of 'altruism' in my psychology classes."

I vaguely remember a similar class discussion . . . seems to me the psych argument for "altruism" is based on that old "enlightened self interest" again. If I see someone stranded by the roadside with a broken-down auto I will stop to help because I would want someone to help me in a similar situation. But of course a lot of people will just drive past anyway (and I'm not saying I routinely help stranded motorists myself.)

It's not technically a profit-loss calculation because I may never get stranded on the motorway and may never get "paid back" for my good deed. On a larger "evolutionary" level, it's simply a good instinct to help your fellow humans out because it helps the species to survive.

So basically not every "instinct" is a "bad" one.
morfe lux
301 posts

Nature
Sep 10, 2003, 22:35
Having spent the greater part of my life being lucky enough to observe nature, both on TV AND in the field, I can say that I agree with you, the larger primates are competitive, but they are also very protective within their own groups. Nature has a dictate that no species can outstrip it's own environment forever, but I cannot help believing that Native American culture realised this, whether or not they fought warring tribes, the central philosphy of life was inextricably linked to respect for the earth and other living beings as their provider and brothers and sisters, respectively. I believe that it was 'our' stomping hatred of this 'barrier' to exploitation that has set us ona course for self-detonation. It's hard to argue the case for human 'nature' when we have removed ourselves so far from nature itself (culturally), we seem to beable to encourage a bastardised version of acquisitiveness that transcends basic need and will BE that bus that stops for no-one or anything until it runs out of road?
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: o bugger, another final point
Sep 10, 2003, 22:36
I don't feel like I am getting "shite" and I am far from "rich."

But I suppose you could argue anyone living in the "first world" is part of the lucky few.
morfe lux
301 posts

Selfishness
Sep 10, 2003, 22:38
"If I see someone stranded by the roadside with a broken-down auto I will stop to help because I would want someone to help me in a similar situation."

Whch could be attributed to a kind of karmic selfishness? You personally contributing (and therefore perpetuating) to a 'cause' that may one day help you. An investment? One for the cynics and pessimists to fight over ;-)
morfe lux
301 posts

ah!
Sep 10, 2003, 22:42
The old: "Although I'm punched in the nuts daily, and my left arm is missing, at least I'm not dead" debate!
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: Technology!
Sep 10, 2003, 22:48
"Snap. But you support the Legal system?"

Of course. I keep saying it's a relative thing. I support laws that are less obtrusive vs. more intrusive, but I don't think we can do away with "law" altogether.

Not that I don't have a lot of arguments against SPECIFIC laws . . . the "war on drugs" idiocy is the perfect example. It's so stupid on so many levels . . .

"Also, I believe we are 'socially engineered' from birth, by the Market."

The market is "us", it's not a "thing outside of us."

Back to the bus metaphor: the bus driver can't just drive wherever he pleases, if he wants a full bus he has to pick people up from where they are and take them to where they want to go. If the bus is empty he won't be able to afford the gas to keep it running. "Supply and demand" is a two way street. I suppose the bus driver can "advertise" to make you think you should go to point B instead of point A, but that can only work to a limited degree. If my job is at point A I won't consider taking the bus to point B even if they promise it will make me socially popular.

So back to "what can you do about it?" If you don't like McDonalds, don't eat there. Tell all your friends why they shouldn't either. If enough people agree with you eventually McD's has to change it's ways or go out of business.

The RIAA is learning this lesson the hard way -- they didn't give consumers what they wanted, now they are totally fucked by file sharing.
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: ah!
Sep 10, 2003, 22:54
Well yes . . . even with your sore testicles and missing arm, at least you haven't had your nuts shorn off with a belt sander and all your limbs ripped out by a team of horses while stinging ants crawl up your anus and your hair is set on fire and . . . you get the point.

There is a certain irony to anyone earning a living in the "first world" complaining about how they are oppressed when there are millions of refugees in Afghanistan eating grass to survive. "Consumerism" and "wage slavery" aren't even an issue for them -- they should be so lucky as to live in a box with an Internet connection!
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: Nature
Sep 10, 2003, 23:06
I am certainly not dissing NatAm culture (hey I'm part NatAm myself) -- and as far as the "separation of Man from Nature" thing you can blaim Judeo-Christian culture spread by Europeans for that . . . ;-)

I think what I am trying to advocate is a philosophy based on a sophisticated rational view of "nature" (I'm not a religious person myself, so stuff like "Karma" doesn't enter into it as far as I'm concerned.)

The idea that 1) systems are self-correcting (if the bus driver is a maniac he will crash the bus and kill himself, "problem solved") and 2) that there is a "natural" competitive instinct among animals living in an environment with finite resources (which is always the case to some degree) and that 3) systems evolve as conditions change . . . are all based on a "natural" philosophy that sees humans as part of the "natural world", not separate from it.

(Was that a run-on sentence or what!!!)

As it relates to politics and economics -- I guess I just think the idea that there is someone who has figured out how the bus SHOULD work and where it SHOULD go is folly. You can't make the bus run on water and give off scented air for exhaust just because it "should" be that way. Though if you're clever, maybe you can design and build something better than the gas-guzzling engine we currently use.
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