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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Far Right Groups Using Ancient Sites |
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Joolio Geordio 1300 posts |
Aug 10, 2019, 19:06
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Hi apologies for bringing politics in to the TMA page but has anyone seen this article about far right groups using and damaging ancient sites? https://antifascist45.wordpress.com/2019/08/10/neo-nazis-at-the-national-trust-how-far-right-groups-are-trying-to-take-back-ancient-sites/
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
Aug 10, 2019, 19:18
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Saw this on twitter earlier. It's not entirely new, as listerinepree found at Wayland's a decade ago. Shitty though isn't it, trying to co-opt something like Avebury to such a rancid agenda.
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GLADMAN 950 posts |
Aug 11, 2019, 10:59
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You'll always get the pathetic attracted to extremist groups which co-opt some 'identity'. It would appear these fools call themselves 'Odinist' which, as long-standing associates of this site will recall, Cope aligned himself toward. So, clearly, being an Odinist doesn't mean you're a far-right fascist nutter. Just as being a member of Labour doesn't mean you're a rabid antisemite. Extremism, as Orwell found out in Spain, is the problem. That's what we need to resist at all costs.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 11, 2019, 13:18
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Years ago there was another spate of people claiming ancient sites were built by original British people, before the immigrants arrived. Not hard to discredit that claim. I reckon everyone convicted of far-right extremism should have their DNA origins analysed and published.
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woolybacque 42 posts |
Aug 11, 2019, 14:00
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nigelswift wrote: I reckon everyone convicted of far-right extremism should have their DNA origins analysed and published. and force to watch this till their eyes bleed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cgeXd5kRDg n.b. Odinists? lets call them Onanists, eh, for the sake of clarity.
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KnowledgeLearner 1 posts |
Aug 11, 2019, 17:39
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Sounds like a Nazi-esque /Nationalist Socialist approach to something The Guardian or Daily Mail told you to think. Unless you're talking about events which said papers blame on Muslims in which case you're demand for ethnic purity testing is futile.
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited Aug 11, 2019, 22:57
Aug 11, 2019, 22:54
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Joolio Geordio wrote: Hi apologies for bringing politics in to the TMA page but has anyone seen this article about far right groups using and damaging ancient sites? https://antifascist45.wordpress.com/2019/08/10/neo-nazis-at-the-national-trust-how-far-right-groups-are-trying-to-take-back-ancient-sites/ I've seen this 'news' story shared on several different archeo pages mainly on Facebook. Not sure if it carries any real weight and feels like a deflection (by the Telegraph) from the real right wing danger currently happening in our country - namely by the current government regime. Your link shows a swastika carved on a tree - which is in fact an ancient symbol and not necessarily sinister. https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/symbol-swastika-and-its-12000-year-old-history-001312
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
Aug 12, 2019, 19:20
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A few years ago I reported seeing some swastikas daubed in the chambers at Belas Knap on here. It led to a bit of a discussion particularly with faerygirl, which got a bit bad-tempered (on my part, sorry FG) about whether the swastika is okay to use because of its long pre-Nazi history. Apart from the obvious point that any vandalism of ancient sites is deplorable, I took the view that the swastika has become too toxic to use, whatever the intentions behind its use may be. Here's what I said at the time: "...there are two problems for me personally: (a) If someone had gone into the chambers and written "peace and love to everyone", it would still be vandalism to an ancient site (b) As I (poorly) tried to say to FG above, the symbol, whatever its origins, has become so loaded down with far-right connotations that if someone uses it at all, it will almost inevitably be seen and interpreted in that context. I've read a lot about "reclaiming" the swastika, but I'm afraid that in Europe, while people are alive who remember Nazism and the Second World War, or whose parents and relatives died as a direct result of that ideology, I don't think it's likely to be possible. The scars are too deeply felt still. Obviously an entirely different position in the east. " In the years since there have been various campaigns to reclaim the swastika (e.g. here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04lsxh5), but each one has met with resistance because it's very difficult to overcome the Nazi associations. By chance today, an opinion piece was posted in the Guardian today about the use of blackface in Morris dancing: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/12/origin-morris-dancing-blacking-up-irrelevant Morris dancing appeals to my Wicker Man version of mythical Britain and my initial white middle class reaction when seeing the article was to mentally make the same arguments that others have done before (history, workers disguising their faces, etc.). But this paragraph struck a chord: "History is interesting. Origin stories fascinate people. All of these arguments are well-worn. But the more I listen to how critics and supporters slice, dice and muddle the evidence, the more tempted I am to say to hell with all of it. What relevance has origin in what is perceived as outwardly – often proudly – racist behaviour?" And it struck me that the same is true of the swastika. Whatever its history and origins, for millions of people it will always be a symbol of a terrible moment in history, of hate, oppression and genocide. In my view it's too ambiguous a symbol to use now, even with good intentions. Why deliberately use something that is guaranteed to cause such upset? I also suspect that the tree carvers know exactly what the swastika's more recent associations are - after all, why only chose that one symbol to carve if you have a different meaning in mind? Just my thoughts, sorry for the longer than intended reply. [PS you know I agree with you on the current right wing coup.]
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Aug 12, 2019, 19:50
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Every year hundreds and hundreds of people with blacked-up faces dance past my house. (Folk festival, not marijuana...) Many groups come from abroad, including USA. They tell me the origin was in Wales, something about not letting the mine owner know you weren't in chapel on a Sunday! It's just fun I think. If black people made a serious objection it would have to stop no doubt. But white Guardian columnists .... not so much.
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
Aug 12, 2019, 19:54
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nigelswift wrote: It's just fun I think. If black people made a serious objection it would have to stop no doubt. But white Guardian columnists .... not so much. That's the point though. We're viewing it from our white perspective. Much as pagans may be viewing the swastika from their non-Jewish perspective.
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