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costaexpress
77 posts

Re: Stonehenge & Environs
Nov 16, 2017, 16:23
Just returned from a few days at Amesbury and Avebury. Nothing to compare to the feeling of excitement as you wander Carrowkeel or the anticipation of Swindale as you walk up the farm track, however, good to catch up on some of the less visited areas (less visited by me that is). So much written about both places you would not think it was all pre history. Left me with a couple of points I would like to chase down 1) Did the river Avon follow the same course through Amesbury 4700 years ago and how would that impact on the ceremonial route to Stonehenge 2) Some of the monuments must have used labour from all over the UK and maybe Europe, if so what language was used to direct works, was there a common language, or was sign language used more extensively than today. Sure to be lots of theories out there so winter reading sorted at least. By the way, promise I did not leave a boot print on any pristine Mesolithic surface.
Monganaut
Monganaut
2365 posts

Edited Nov 16, 2017, 19:58
Re: Stonehenge & Environs
Nov 16, 2017, 19:49
Hey, hope you had a good time, weather was on your side if nothing else.

As far as languag goes, read a book pertaining to the Iron Age which stated that Breton, Cornish, Welsh and Gaelic all come from a common root. Either Brithonic P for Welsh (the example given is for the word son, which in Welsh is Map) and Brithonic Q for Gaelic (Which is why son in Scottish is Mac). Apparently modern Welsh is the closest we have to the language of Britains during the Iron Age. It wouldn't be a terrible stretch to imagine it stemming from an older language. According to the book (unfortunately i forget what book it was) the Gaulish Iron Age tribes in France had no problems understanding the English Tribes, though that doesn't mean that thy spoke exactly the same tongue. Would be curious to know if there were regional variations in the languge like we used to have not so long ago, and indeed have to some degree these days with regional accents.

So sorry, didn't really answer your question, but went some way too.

I saw a Time Team (I think) docu with Tony on a barge with Mike PP and a couple of others, one who stated that the course of the Avon hadn't changed a great deal since the Neolithic. Being chalk I'd have thought it would have cut deeper channels at bends etc.... so moved it somewhat, but apparently not. Think the prog was about finds at Durrington Walls, and the causeway from Durrington to the Avon. Also on catch up on Virgin, there are a couple of Stonhenge Docu's on there right now from the last week, One about ongoing Landscape Project (the Lidar and geophys one) from 2015 where one of the guys seemed to think that the Sarsens were dragged on a route pretty much the same ass the ice age grooves of the avenue, but I've heard no one else subscribe to that (and indeed, if you've walkd the final bit of the avenue, under grass, the grooves don't seem that apparent at all, so I don't know if it's just a happy accident, or Archeo's overthinking things again).
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Nov 17, 2017, 09:53
Re: Stonehenge & Environs
Nov 17, 2017, 09:50
costaexpress wrote:
Just returned from a few days at Amesbury and Avebury. Nothing to compare to the feeling of excitement as you wander Carrowkeel or the anticipation of Swindale as you walk up the farm track, however, good to catch up on some of the less visited areas (less visited by me that is). So much written about both places you would not think it was all pre history. Left me with a couple of points I would like to chase down 1) Did the river Avon follow the same course through Amesbury 4700 years ago and how would that impact on the ceremonial route to Stonehenge 2) Some of the monuments must have used labour from all over the UK and maybe Europe, if so what language was used to direct works, was there a common language, or was sign language used more extensively than today. Sure to be lots of theories out there so winter reading sorted at least. By the way, promise I did not leave a boot print on any pristine Mesolithic surface.


Glad you enjoyed your visit - today that landscape is overwritten with centuries of human activity so it is sometimes hard to get the 'prehistory feel' of the place although parts of Salisbury Plain are still pristine as owned by the army. When I visited Imber on one of the few occasions it is open to the public we drove through miles of unpopulated and quite bleak grassland. I believe there are a few longbarrows around there which I personally have never seen.
As you've said, and others too, there are so many other remote and amazing prehistoric sites to visit in the British Isles which don't get anything like the same publicity as Stonehenge - thank goodness. Ireland in particular holds a pull for me.
Having said that, yesterday morning went across the Marlborough Downs, through Avebury, past Silbury on the 49 bus (from Swindon). There was mist lifting in November sunlight - nowhere more beautiful or ancient to be found anywhere. Just past Beckhampton saw a large flock of lapwings - quite a rare and thrilling sight.
Don't forget about Avebury and surrounding landscape - always the place I go back to. Never ever disappoints.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Stonehenge & Environs
Nov 17, 2017, 10:26
a large flock of lapwings.....

Aoto-engage old character mode:

They used to be everywhere, and snipes, and dead moths plastered over your windscreen. Grrr.

And go out and leave your front door open and come back and find the place empty.
Duh!
costaexpress
77 posts

Re: Stonehenge & Environs
Nov 17, 2017, 11:11
Hi Monganaut, your response brought a huge smile to my face, why?, well the reference to Neolithic language possibly being connected to the Welsh language. As a schoolboy growing up in Amlwch, Anglesey, we had to learn Welsh and the thought that I might have been able to ask one of the builders at Stonehenge 'Where is the train station' quite made my day. On a more serious note, I think the whole question of language during the building of the great monuments and the beginning of trade with Europe is fascinating and definitely my winter project. As for the river at Amesbury still meandering along the same course it did over 4500 years ago I will have to leave to the experts, at least it removes one other variable from the equation (and Lord knows there are enough)
costaexpress
77 posts

Re: Stonehenge & Environs
Nov 17, 2017, 11:21
I did enjoy Avebury as well as Amesbury. Did the usual walk starting in the NT car park up Windmill Hill, down to Adam and Eve, across to the Henge, down the Avenue, Silbury Hill, West Kennet and the Sanctuary and Barrows, however ran out of time for the stone drifts at Fyfield. Bit of play off really, visiting whilst quiet vs lack of daylight. Really enjoyed the small museum in Devizes, staff could not have been more welcoming and pleasant easy display guiding you around. By the way, I find Silbury has become even more fascinating as they continue to discover nothing buried there? Looking across at it from Windmill Hill it definitely took on a new significance for me.
Monganaut
Monganaut
2365 posts

Re: Stonehenge & Environs
Nov 18, 2017, 00:22
Would love to be able to speak Welsh, my dad (who was welsh, though from the South) in his day was punished for speaking the language as a boy, so gradually grew out of the habit, esp after moving to England pre WWII when he was just 15 for a cabinet making apprenticeship.

We had a lovely holiday on Anglesey this year, stayed near Llandyfrydog, what an amazing island. An old friend used to work on site as a surveyer when they tried to kickstart the Parys mountain copper mine backin the late 90's, so know Almwch a little too.
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