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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Trethevy Quoit in danger |
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 07:23
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harestonesdown wrote: Sanctuary wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: Here you are, good pics of the engineering work: http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/about/news/neolithic-monument-hetty-peglers-tump-reopens-to-visitors-after-urgent-repairs/ Ah yes, thanks Alken. Didn't know the tump had been reopened ! I give "em" enough stick so have to give credit where it's due here, spiffing work. On the other hand, shouldn't Trethevy be fenced off before it kills someone ? It looks like it easily could and that would be my immediate priority. The EH engineer didn't think so Geoff reckoning they see much worse apparently!
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 11:17
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thesweetcheat wrote: Here you are, good pics of the engineering work: http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/about/news/neolithic-monument-hetty-peglers-tump-reopens-to-visitors-after-urgent-repairs/ That’s impressive, and give Sanctuary’s comment that there are only eight stones in total, including the capstone, to deal with (at Trethevy) remedial work there wouldn’t be that difficult. The alternative really doesn’t bear thinking about – Cornwall's jewel in the crown in a heap, possibly with more than one of its stones broken, and fatalities or injuries to anyone there when it did come down.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 15:05
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Littlestone wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: Here you are, good pics of the engineering work: http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/about/news/neolithic-monument-hetty-peglers-tump-reopens-to-visitors-after-urgent-repairs/ That’s impressive, and give Sanctuary’s comment that there are only eight stones in total, including the capstone, to deal with (at Trethevy) remedial work there wouldn’t be that difficult. The alternative really doesn’t bear thinking about – Cornwall's jewel in the crown in a heap, possibly with more than one of its stones broken, and fatalities or injuries to anyone there when it did come down. Unfortunately, unlike a barrow as an example, the quoit, when it eventually falls, isn't going to fall apart one piece at a time until being checked like it did the first time around. This time it is very likely to end up as an expensive jig-saw puzzle on the ground IMO, which, in reality, that comment isn't worth a light because I am not qualified to say so! It has lost two of its three main stabilising points, one being replaced with a poor substitute. They are the ones that connect the front to the back and therefore allowing the front closure stone to move outwards to a frightening degree. Looking at the ridiculous angle of the capstone you would assume it will slide off backwards but quite the opposite is actually happening such was the brilliance of its initial construction when it was perfectly balanced! The capstone has been designed and planned to not slide backwards which it has achieved magnificiantly, but no provision was made for it to not fall forwards like it is! Whoever is standing behind it when/if it does fall eventually will be the one that walks away!
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Edited Mar 02, 2013, 16:40
Mar 02, 2013, 16:35
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I must say,it's hard to think there isn't a danger of the capstone sliding off when you see this picture from 11 years ago http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/11/trethevy_quoit.html#images (the last one in the last line but one, posted by phil). I can only presume the EH engineers have calculated that friction will keep it in place. So far as the other movement is concerned, have you been able to replicate any of the early pictures on TMA in order to show a change?
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VBB 558 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 18:51
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nigelswift wrote: I must say,it's hard to think there isn't a danger of the capstone sliding off when you see this picture from 11 years ago http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/11/trethevy_quoit.html#images (the last one in the last line but one, posted by phil). I can only presume the EH engineers have calculated that friction will keep it in place. So far as the other movement is concerned, have you been able to replicate any of the early pictures on TMA in order to show a change? A word of caution - a desk based assessment of historic images by people that actually knew the Avebury stones very well suggested the Cove stones might fall, but when they spent a packet on engineering kit and scaffolding and excavated below, the stone giving rise to concern was found to be roughly 7x4.5x1.5m with 3m of it under the ground and estimated at 100 tonnes - one of the largest in Britain and it wasn’t likely going anywhere…
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 18:57
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VBB wrote: A word of caution - a desk based assessment of historic images by people that actually knew the Avebury stones very well suggested the Cove stones might fall, but when they spent a packet on engineering kit and scaffolding and excavated below, the stone giving rise to concern was found to be roughly 7x4.5x1.5m with 3m of it under the ground and estimated at 100 tonnes - one of the largest in Britain and it wasn’t likely going anywhere… Why then was it repositioned closer to the vertical and stabilized?
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 19:31
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nigelswift wrote: I must say,it's hard to think there isn't a danger of the capstone sliding off when you see this picture from 11 years ago http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/11/trethevy_quoit.html#images (the last one in the last line but one, posted by phil). I can only presume the EH engineers have calculated that friction will keep it in place. So far as the other movement is concerned, have you been able to replicate any of the early pictures on TMA in order to show a change? In my opinion Nigel, based on my own research which never once relied on information from other sources, is that Trethevy has reached the point of no return and will fall. All that is preventing it happen at the moment is the immense skill of our great ancestors, but it won't last. I have plenty more to say and a lot more evidence which will be available in a couple of weeks time, in the meantime look at these pix I have taken over the past 18 months. They are just a taster. Pic 1 and 2 show the capstone resting on the Main supporting orthostat, the only stone that is earthfast (thank goodness). Resting is the wrong word today because it no longer does that but leans against it and is now pushing it out. You can see by the rounded corner on the main orthostat that it is now just beyond the point of no return and cannot be saved unless supported. A blind man can see that but not EH! Pic 3 is the result of it being pushed past the point of no return, a massive lean. You already know that during 2011 it moved another 3/4". It stops for a while to take up the strain, then it starts again. An earth tremor would finish it off. The 3rd pic is just a pic I took from an odd angle to show what a wreck the quoit can look depending on where you take it from, hence the photo you refer to showing the capstone about to slide off. Pic 5 shows why it hasn't slid off and for some reason not mentioned over the years...keying points...and they called themselves researchers! This was cutting-edge technology of its time and gone un-noticed. I have loads of this stuff to be read soon so it's best I say no more. Other than...Trethevy had a HUGE scare in the past and is not now as it is was then prior to that scare. The only mystery left is why all the antiqueries of the past have not sussed it out. https://picasaweb.google.com/100525707086862773355/ThePointOfNoReturn?authkey=Gv1sRgCK7iqszBhMC6Jw#
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VBB 558 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 19:38
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Littlestone wrote: VBB wrote: A word of caution - a desk based assessment of historic images by people that actually knew the Avebury stones very well suggested the Cove stones might fall, but when they spent a packet on engineering kit and scaffolding and excavated below, the stone giving rise to concern was found to be roughly 7x4.5x1.5m with 3m of it under the ground and estimated at 100 tonnes - one of the largest in Britain and it wasn’t likely going anywhere… Why then was it repositioned closer to the vertical and stabilized? I asked at the time what evidence there was for altering anything once it was known it wasn't going anywhere, but it had to be stabilized of course because someone had now dug a trench next to it. The account is in Gillings & co Landscape of the Megaliths (Oxbow, 2008) pp. 143-169; but there is a brief outline in BA 103 Nov/Dec: http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba103/feat2.shtml
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 19:44
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VBB wrote: nigelswift wrote: I must say,it's hard to think there isn't a danger of the capstone sliding off when you see this picture from 11 years ago http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/11/trethevy_quoit.html#images (the last one in the last line but one, posted by phil). I can only presume the EH engineers have calculated that friction will keep it in place. So far as the other movement is concerned, have you been able to replicate any of the early pictures on TMA in order to show a change? A word of caution - a desk based assessment of historic images by people that actually knew the Avebury stones very well suggested the Cove stones might fall, but when they spent a packet on engineering kit and scaffolding and excavated below, the stone giving rise to concern was found to be roughly 7x4.5x1.5m with 3m of it under the ground and estimated at 100 tonnes - one of the largest in Britain and it wasn’t likely going anywhere… I don't know if that is strictly true VBB as leaning massively heavy stones do continue to move albeit very slowly. If it wasn't going to then that further suggests it was always like that...which it wasn't was it? Anyway, that apart, we could have got a couple of spades out and dug down the side of one of the ends without putting the stone at risk at all of falling and told them how deep it was. We could have made a few bob out of that while saving them a few grand as well :-) Mind you it would have taken us an age with the RL just over the road!!
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VBB 558 posts |
Mar 02, 2013, 20:05
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Sanctuary wrote: VBB wrote: nigelswift wrote: I must say,it's hard to think there isn't a danger of the capstone sliding off when you see this picture from 11 years ago http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/11/trethevy_quoit.html#images (the last one in the last line but one, posted by phil). I can only presume the EH engineers have calculated that friction will keep it in place. So far as the other movement is concerned, have you been able to replicate any of the early pictures on TMA in order to show a change? A word of caution - a desk based assessment of historic images by people that actually knew the Avebury stones very well suggested the Cove stones might fall, but when they spent a packet on engineering kit and scaffolding and excavated below, the stone giving rise to concern was found to be roughly 7x4.5x1.5m with 3m of it under the ground and estimated at 100 tonnes - one of the largest in Britain and it wasn’t likely going anywhere… I don't know if that is strictly true VBB as leaning massively heavy stones do continue to move albeit very slowly. If it wasn't going to then that further suggests it was always like that...which it wasn't was it? Anyway, that apart, we could have got a couple of spades out and dug down the side of one of the ends without putting the stone at risk at all of falling and told them how deep it was. We could have made a few bob out of that while saving them a few grand as well :-) Mind you it would have taken us an age with the RL just over the road!! LOL! The thought of you and me with buckets and spades Roy, we sat at the table outside the Red Lion and couldn't manage a pint between us! I mentioned the Cove stone in the context of desk based assessments using photographs, my point being that things are not as they may seem particularly if you come it from the restoration angle (no pun intended - honest!). I have to say looking down in that hole and seeing how big that stone actually revealed itself to be was awsome. That was some feat to get that upright. If I were there and it had slipped in I wouldn't be giving a toss what angle it was at as I would be pooped along with everyone else.
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