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thesweetcheat 6209 posts |
Dec 16, 2012, 17:44
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I thought cupmarks showed a map of water sources. [runs away] In all seriousness I like Stan Beckensall's approach to rock art, which is to comment on what's actually there, rather than spending energy on speculating about what it all "means".
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bladup 1986 posts |
Edited Dec 16, 2012, 22:49
Dec 16, 2012, 22:32
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Not just water but a map of everything [inc energies] in their landscapes [the settlements with it's huts inside are some of the easiest to spot, along with moving and still water] and i know though practical experience some rock art is just marking the energy within the stone itself and the zig zags and chevrons you see in chambered cairns are also what people saw under altered states, like i always say if you look when you have had what was in their beakers [before the beer and mead] then you'd understand the rock art in a way that brings you very close indeed to the ancesters motives, i assure you of that, once you've had what they'd had [the rock art proves this] at the places they did - the great stone circles and chambered cairns it all makes a lot more sense, i'm no expert but do have some practical experience in the matter.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Dec 16, 2012, 22:44
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bladup wrote: Not just water but a map of everything [inc energies] in their landscapes [the settlements with it's huts inside are some of the easiest to spot] and i know though practical experience some rock art is just marking the energy within the stone itself and the zig zags and chevrons you see in chambered cairns are also what people saw under altered states, like i always say if you look when you have had whats in their beakers [before the beer and mead] then you'd understand the rock art in a way that brings you very close to the ancesters motives, i assure you of that, once you've had what they've had [the rock art proves this] at the places they did - the great stone circles and chambered cairns it all makes a lot more sense. Is there a particular marked rock that you know that would prove your claim Paul?
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bladup 1986 posts |
Edited Dec 16, 2012, 23:21
Dec 16, 2012, 23:14
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It's more about the experiences at the stones [in normal and altered states] and the knowledge gained from visiting 1000's of rock art sites [plus all the knowledge from past lives], it's a accumulative knowledge over years and years, it's hard to teach because of that, but i've got 1000's of examples in my mind of various things at rock art sites that show something thats still in the landscape, there's a rock art site on Ilkley moor that clearly shows the line of cairns, ringcairns and the 12 Apostles stone circle on the moor, it's unmistakeable once you understand the monuments there, the ringcairns are shown by circles, the cairns by a simple cup [this is one of the problems, because simple cups can mean other things to do with water as well, a lot of the art has more than one meaning] but the 12 Apostles shows the embankment in a circle but on the inside show the stones in the circle, a lot of bronze age forts with their huts are marked on rocks in Northumberland, loads that show local watercourses and places to obtain clean water, but we've been here before and i can't believe george [and other rock art people] know so little about them even though they've probably been to the most, that means it's the hallucinogens that lets you understand a lot more, a lot of the art is what people actually see on the substances on the stones themselves, when they've done tests in labs all the patterns you see in the chambered cairns are all drawn and reported by the people on the substances, it's one of those things that if you've done it you'd know what i'm on about and if you haven't you may not [unless you've done it in a past life].
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Dec 16, 2012, 23:28
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Sanctuary wrote: bladup wrote: Not just water but a map of everything [inc energies] in their landscapes [the settlements with it's huts inside are some of the easiest to spot] and i know though practical experience some rock art is just marking the energy within the stone itself and the zig zags and chevrons you see in chambered cairns are also what people saw under altered states, like i always say if you look when you have had whats in their beakers [before the beer and mead] then you'd understand the rock art in a way that brings you very close to the ancesters motives, i assure you of that, once you've had what they've had [the rock art proves this] at the places they did - the great stone circles and chambered cairns it all makes a lot more sense. Is there a particular marked rock that you know that would prove your claim Paul? Zig zags , chevrons spirals all the important motifs found in passage grave engravings are also found in childrens drawings , there is no suggestion that the children were influenced by experiences from ASC 's these motifs are the common currency of the humans everywhere . There is no evidence for any use of anything hallucinogenic from any beakers or pottery found in Neolthic or Bronze Age Britain or Ireland . You might imagine if the engravers had taken anthing hallucinogenic and allowed it to influnece their art it would be much more varied and not nearly so repetitive and conservative .
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Edited Dec 16, 2012, 23:51
Dec 16, 2012, 23:45
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bladup wrote: It's more about the experiences at the stones [in normal and altered states] and the knowledge gained from visiting 1000's of rock art sites [plus all the knowledge from past lives], it's a accumulative knowledge over years and years, it's hard to teach because of that, but i've got 1000's of examples in my mind of various things at rock art sites that show something thats still in the landscape, there's a rock art site on Ilkley moor that clearly shows the line of cairns, ringcairns and the 12 Apostles stone circle on the moor, it's unmistakeable once you understand the monuments there, the ringcairns are shown by circles, the cairns by a simple cup [this is one of the problems, because simple cups can mean other things to do with water as well, a lot of the art has more than one meaning] but the 12 Apostles shows the embankment in a circle but on the inside show the stones in the circle, a lot of bronze age forts with their huts are marked on rocks in Northumberland, loads that show local watercourses and places to obtain clean water, but we've been here before and i can't believe george [and other rock art people] know so little about them even though they've probably been to the most, that means it's the hallucinogens that lets you understand a lot more, a lot of the art is what people actually see on the substances on the stones themselves, when they've done tests in labs all the patterns you see in the chambered cairns are all drawn and reported by the people on the substances, it's one of those things that if you've done it you'd know what i'm on about and if you haven't you may not [unless you've done it in a past life]. This type of "explanation " where rock art motifs are said to represent features in the landscape has been suggested since the start of rock art studies . Whenever it is actually put to the test it fails ,there are too many ,or not enough features and they are in the wrong place . This is usually explained by what doesn't fit as no longer being there .There is also the problem that often near by the motifs are other marked rocks with similar motifs but with different patterns and combinations . Using psychedelics to get insights can be useful and those that have an interest in rock art and altered states have often tried it and whilst very pleasurable the actual " insights " like many others that seemed so enlightening at the time turn out to be more funny than helpful when considered in the cold light of day . If they are testable they fail i.e. I have yet to hear of anyone coming up with an idea that has been accepted as being true about rock art that was derived from a psychedelic experience , (much the same can be said about non psychedelic experiences too ) if unfalsifiable then they are no better than all the other unfalsifiable suggestions .
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bladup 1986 posts |
Edited Dec 17, 2012, 02:50
Dec 17, 2012, 01:56
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tiompan wrote: Sanctuary wrote: bladup wrote: Not just water but a map of everything [inc energies] in their landscapes [the settlements with it's huts inside are some of the easiest to spot] and i know though practical experience some rock art is just marking the energy within the stone itself and the zig zags and chevrons you see in chambered cairns are also what people saw under altered states, like i always say if you look when you have had whats in their beakers [before the beer and mead] then you'd understand the rock art in a way that brings you very close to the ancesters motives, i assure you of that, once you've had what they've had [the rock art proves this] at the places they did - the great stone circles and chambered cairns it all makes a lot more sense. Is there a particular marked rock that you know that would prove your claim Paul? Zig zags , chevrons spirals all the important motifs found in passage grave engravings are also found in childrens drawings , there is no suggestion that the children were influenced by experiences from ASC 's these motifs are the common currency of the humans everywhere . There is no evidence for any use of anything hallucinogenic from any beakers or pottery found in Neolthic or Bronze Age Britain or Ireland . You might imagine if the engravers had taken anthing hallucinogenic and allowed it to influnece their art it would be much more varied and not nearly so repetitive and conservative . Yes the patterns are deep rooted in our brains, kids may draw them, migraines [and other stuff] can also cause people to see them but hallucinogens are by far and away the most common and clear way to see these patterns [in the mind, in the landscape and on/in the rocks], and by now you should know that we "know and learn" things in very different ways, i have nothing to prove to you and your books, as your lack of knowledge on this subject you hold so dear is amazing to me, but you keep living in your little bubble where you know everything and i know nothing [and everyone else to be honest], i'm someone you could learn a little off but all you do is show why your stuck where you are on the subject, sorry Sanctuary but i'm not going round and round with this small minded fool again, it's sad as i think i could have a great chat about this with you and the other open minded people on here, but this "know it all" is determined to make sure it doesn't happen as we would like it to, it's odd that isn't it? maybe it's because people might realise he knows fuck all on the subject really, whats mental is the fact that he puts down things he can't prove are wrong even though the madman thinks he is actually doing just that [all the bloody time]. Sanctuary even asked you "So have you not 'moved on' in your understanding of them at all then George or are you still evaluating?" it's a good point because it looks like you just want us all to think you know about them [you only know where to find some, as we all do] but when it comes to answers you don't have anything that makes sense but are very very quick to rubbish others [with no proof that their wrong at all], it's all a very unfunny joke, and over to Nigel and Harryshill for your defence.......like i said it's all a very unfunny joke.
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bladup 1986 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 03:05
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You can't even see the maps [which certainly aren't OS quality] among the decorated rocks can you? like i said before the problem is a lot of the symbols have two or more meanings [as do most things in the neolithic] - eg a simple cup can be a cairn, a pool of still water, a hut [or small dwelling] or just part of a pattern in a design [of the energy in the rock], but hey ho what do i know eh???
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 06:37
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bladup wrote: over to Nigel and Harryshill for your defence..... You mistake agreeing with him with defending him, just as you mistake disagreeing with you as an attack. Here's something you may take as an attack on you, but it isn't, it's an expression of my opinion (that your claims aren't well-founded): You said earlier "the problem is a lot of the symbols have two or more meanings" but don't you see, if that's the case your observations and conclusions become highly suspect to say the least. A triangle means a hill, a spring and a rock and another triangle means that too. So here is a "map" with two triangles, and lo, over there is a tree and a spring. Proved! (Not).
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Harryshill 510 posts |
Dec 17, 2012, 07:54
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LOL. Nothing to defend.
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