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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Silbury Hill » Trespass on SSSI sites |
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Sep 04, 2012, 13:25
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I understand it is a particularly special SSSI as its the only one in the country with a uniform slope extending for 360 degrees so it's particularly interesting for research. I can well understand people climbing up using lots of different routes is damaging.
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Sep 04, 2012, 13:26
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Rhiannon wrote: I don't see how, I think this is a very interesting conversation and totally at the heart of what a tma forum ought to be about. Also, we don't seem to be arguing or slagging each other off which is especially nice :) I can totally relate to what you're saying, about the wanting to connect with something (perhaps that's what you're saying). something about what human beings are all about. something that you can only get a clearer idea of when you're dealing in time frames much bigger than a single lifetime. dunno. But what do you make of my point that there are other places you could go and experience something of that? That it doesn't have to be the carefully managed and manicured begravelled Skara Brae? That in fact there might be even better places? But I realise Skara Brae is pretty ace. You don't get neolithic sideboards everywhere. Yes, it's really good for the soul and generally productive to be able to have conversations like this. I agree, there are other places to go to experience those things. Absolutely. Do you know, when I eventually get up to Orkney, having had this conversation, I may very well decide to give up the opportunity to 'take my chance'. It'll half kill me to walk away, but, ultimately, as I can't prove to myself its ok, I really have no choice if i'm to respect myself at all.
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Edited Sep 04, 2012, 13:31
Sep 04, 2012, 13:29
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nigelswift wrote: I understand it is a particularly special SSSI as its the only one in the country with a uniform slope extending for 360 degrees so it's particularly interesting for research. I can well understand people climbing up using lots of different routes is damaging. I agree. I'm not of the opinion that people should be 'officially' allowed onto Silbury, or that people should climb it at all. There is too much damage to be done simply by planting your feet on it imo.
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bladup 1986 posts |
Edited Sep 04, 2012, 14:04
Sep 04, 2012, 13:57
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Evergreen Dazed wrote: Rhiannon, As I've stated earlier, im no advocate of climbing the hill, but I'd like to ask you a question. If you were at Skara Brae alone and after hours and an opportunity presented itself for you to enter the houses for a few minutes, without being 'caught', would you do it? I'd just like the position to be clarified, because there's some possible misinterpretation here. Merely setting foot on Silbury damages it in a way that setting foot inside a house at Skara Brae wouldn't damage that structure, granted, but would you, if you knew you could 100% 'get away with it', so to speak, enter one of those houses? I've been in there "after hours" as well, when we got there it was shut but went in anyway as it was free!!
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tjj 3606 posts |
Sep 04, 2012, 14:01
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Evergreen Dazed wrote: Rhiannon wrote: I don't see how, I think this is a very interesting conversation and totally at the heart of what a tma forum ought to be about. Also, we don't seem to be arguing or slagging each other off which is especially nice :) I can totally relate to what you're saying, about the wanting to connect with something (perhaps that's what you're saying). something about what human beings are all about. something that you can only get a clearer idea of when you're dealing in time frames much bigger than a single lifetime. dunno. But what do you make of my point that there are other places you could go and experience something of that? That it doesn't have to be the carefully managed and manicured begravelled Skara Brae? That in fact there might be even better places? But I realise Skara Brae is pretty ace. You don't get neolithic sideboards everywhere. Yes, it's really good for the soul and generally productive to be able to have conversations like this. I agree, there are other places to go to experience those things. Absolutely. Do you know, when I eventually get up to Orkney, having had this conversation, I may very well decide to give up the opportunity to 'take my chance'. It'll half kill me to walk away, but, ultimately, as I can't prove to myself its ok, I really have no choice if i'm to respect myself at all. Jarlshof on the Shetlands had open access when I visited three years ago. Its an amazing site that has layers of archaeology as it continued to be used over the centuries. Off the top of my head, I think the oldest part is about 7,000 years old.
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bladup 1986 posts |
Sep 04, 2012, 14:01
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Evergreen Dazed wrote: Rhiannon wrote: I'm not sure my own particular behaviour is central, that isn't really what I was getting at although I used myself as an example about Silbury. I think the underlying issue's the same though. If people sit down and discuss the issues, and decide in a logical way that there's a risk that a precious site will be damaged because of the footfall of lots of people, then you have to stop large numbers of people stepping on the site. If that means the general public can't wander around Skara Brae, Stonehenge, Silbury, then that's how it is. And we are the general public. Even though some of us might like to think we're extra special and the rules don't apply to us. OF COURSE I'd like to sit in Skara Brae, put my cup of tea on the sideboard, snuggle down in one of the beds, imagine myself back in the stone age and listen to the wind howling outside Etc- who bloody wouldn't, especially weird people that have a particular obsession with all things prehistoric? But it's irrelevant, because the rule is no one is allowed to do that. It's not quite the same thing as sneaking into the ruined abbey at Canterbury after hours (as I did many years ago) because that's somewhere that everyone is allowed to trudge round during the day. The question is, am I more special than everyone else, do I have some special right to bend the rules that apply to everyone else for the good of the site? What's more important in the long run, the welfare of the site or me satisfying my impulse? (It sounds like I like rules, I don't particularly, but I think we're talking about rules as in societal consensus. The people looking after Silbury, Skara Brae, Stonehenge, you'd like to think they are people who have the sites' protection at heart, and they're experienced / educated people who have been hired for their expertise. So if they decide we shouldn't trample all over Silbury etc, in this case I'm willing to believe that it's quite a good decision) Absolutely agreed. Regarding my direct question, you don't have to answer it, of course, but i'm keen to hear the honest answer. I'm not trying to catch anybody out here, and for me, at least, the question wasn't "Am I more special than everybody else" (although I can see how it might have been interpreted in that way). My direct question was coming more from a philosophical attitude, perhaps trying to form ideas of how human beings interact with places they feel attached or drawn to. The 'law' and the idea of site preservation just make this more intruiging. I am drawn to the places, and if that happens it's the all important thing for me!!
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
Sep 04, 2012, 18:47
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nigelswift wrote: "The question is, am I more special than everyone else, do I have some special right to bend the rules that apply to everyone else for the good of the site? What's more important in the long run, the welfare of the site or me satisfying my impulse? (It sounds like I like rules, I don't particularly, but I think we're talking about rules as in societal consensus. The people looking after Silbury, Skara Brae, Stonehenge, you'd like to think they are people who have the sites' protection at heart, and they're experienced / educated people who have been hired for their expertise. So if they decide we shouldn't trample all over Silbury etc, in this case I'm willing to believe that it's quite a good decision)" ....................................................... ....tumultuous applause.... (From me anyway) Yep, I'd go with that too. Although I would add the caveat that the heritage bodies don't always know best, as views do have a habit of changing over the years. But I would give them the benefit of the doubt on the basis that they have a degree of expertise that I sure don't.
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
Sep 04, 2012, 19:04
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Rhiannon wrote: I don't see how, I think this is a very interesting conversation and totally at the heart of what a tma forum ought to be about. Also, we don't seem to be arguing or slagging each other off which is especially nice :) I can totally relate to what you're saying, about the wanting to connect with something (perhaps that's what you're saying). something about what human beings are all about. something that you can only get a clearer idea of when you're dealing in time frames much bigger than a single lifetime. dunno. But what do you make of my point that there are other places you could go and experience something of that? That it doesn't have to be the carefully managed and manicured begravelled Skara Brae? That in fact there might be even better places? But I realise Skara Brae is pretty ace. You don't get neolithic sideboards everywhere. I think this is one of the most interesting discussions on here for a long time and I don't think it's OT at all ED. In fact, I think its so fundamentally ON Topic that all the other TMA topics may actually be off topic. If you see what I mean. I think I am able to accept the dichotomy of my own views on this issue (as set out in my late-night rambling last night) and that there is a difference between the much-visited at-risk site and the little-visited places I generally frequent. The discussion does however make me even less enthusiastic about visiting places like Stonehenge (that I still have never been to), as what I love about most sites I visit is probably going to be "missing in action" at Stonehenge. Getting up close and personal is part of the draw, and if it's not possible (for entirely sensible reasons of site-preservation) I'd rather skip the visit than peer throught the fence, if I'm honest. Having said that - and this bit may be a little more controversial - where places are fenced off for no reason other than purely proprietory selfishness (i.e not to preserve the site or anything like that, but purely to keep the proles out), I willl still feel less compunction about getting closer.
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
Sep 04, 2012, 19:07
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nigelswift wrote: I understand it is a particularly special SSSI .... That's a SSSSI then? :)
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Sep 04, 2012, 19:13
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In fact, I think its so fundamentally ON Topic that all the other TMA topics may actually be off topic. If you see what I mean. No I don’t - please explain...
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