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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 08:31
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Sanctuary wrote: Resonox wrote: tjj wrote: More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it. Here's a 1910 photo of the Den http://www.flickr.com/photos/swindonlocal/5451164002/ PS. Check out the 'Swindon Collection' on the right for some fabulous old pics of Avebury/Silbury etc.
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tjj 3606 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 09:51
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Sanctuary wrote: Resonox wrote: TJJ could you please clarify for me what you mean by "albeit a reconstruction"...cheers Here's a 1910 photo of the Den http://www.flickr.com/photos/swindonlocal/5451164002/ Devil's Den was the remains of a long barrow - the mound destroyed and the stones fallen. It was restored in the early part of the 20th century by a well meaning antiquary who restored to how he thought it should look. I was puzzled as to why it was the only 'portal tomb' in Wiltshire until reading the superb little book by Peter Fowler and Ian Blackwell An English Countryside Restored - The Land of Lettice Sweetapple (found in my local Tourist Information Centre and still one of the most useful reference books on the Fyfield/Overton area there is).
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Resonox 604 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 10:28
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tjj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Resonox wrote: TJJ could you please clarify for me what you mean by "albeit a reconstruction"...cheers Here's a 1910 photo of the Den http://www.flickr.com/photos/swindonlocal/5451164002/ Devil's Den was the remains of a long barrow - the mound destroyed and the stones fallen. It was restored in the early part of the 20th century by a well meaning antiquary who restored to how he thought it should look. I was puzzled as to why it was the only 'portal tomb' in Wiltshire until reading the superb little book by Peter Fowler and Ian Blackwell An English Countryside Restored - The Land of Lettice Sweetapple (found in my local Tourist Information Centre and still one of the most useful reference books on the Fyfield/Overton area there is). I just wondered if by reconstruction you meant it was "recreated" using non-original stones and did climbers over the ages cause the original knocking down. I would've thought that the renovators would've noticed rock-art especially if it is such a rarity in the area. BTW you should've voiced your opinion at the "disrespect" at the time even though you didn't feel it was harming the (reconstructed)stones, your associates might've had a little respect for your feelings and not investigated the stone quite as thoroughly in your presence.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 10:47
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Resonox wrote: tjj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Resonox wrote: TJJ could you please clarify for me what you mean by "albeit a reconstruction"...cheers Here's a 1910 photo of the Den http://www.flickr.com/photos/swindonlocal/5451164002/ Devil's Den was the remains of a long barrow - the mound destroyed and the stones fallen. It was restored in the early part of the 20th century by a well meaning antiquary who restored to how he thought it should look. I was puzzled as to why it was the only 'portal tomb' in Wiltshire until reading the superb little book by Peter Fowler and Ian Blackwell An English Countryside Restored - The Land of Lettice Sweetapple (found in my local Tourist Information Centre and still one of the most useful reference books on the Fyfield/Overton area there is). I just wondered if by reconstruction you meant it was "recreated" using non-original stones and did climbers over the ages cause the original knocking down. I would've thought that the renovators would've noticed rock-art especially if it is such a rarity in the area. BTW you should've voiced your opinion at the "disrespect" at the time even though you didn't feel it was harming the (reconstructed)stones, your associates might've had a little respect for your feelings and not investigated the stone quite as thoroughly in your presence. In 'defence' of June, although she certainly doesn't need me to stand up for her, it's not always easy to voice an opinion when in the company of people who you may consider your peers or you are fearful of if strangers. A 'time and a place' often decides these things and I've been in that position myself on more than one occasion.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 11:28
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jonnyj wrote: In general i agree with you, but also it depends why you're climbing on the stones, and who is. I understand that day, from what i've read, you had with you what could be classed as the 3 foremost experts on rock art in their respective areas. ? Inquisitive jovial sorts who's laugh in the face of conventionality. It seems that is suggesting it's OK to climb on the stones if you're an expert in rock art elsewhere and/or a jovial sort who laughs in the face of conventionality. I disagree about the "unconventional and jovial" justification, it just means people that don't care what others think. As for the expert bit, have these marks been accepted as man-made by anyone other than this group? Maybe they got it wrong, and they're natural? One of them said - "the majority of Wessex archaeologists are academically illiterate when it comes to identifying such carvings". Sounds like "Wessex archaeos don't agree they are man-made" to me! http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oHXiJp9bLF8J:megalithix.wordpress.com/category/england/wiltshire/page/2/+%22devil%27s+den%22+%22cup+marks%22&cd=22&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
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Resonox 604 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 13:51
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Sanctuary wrote: Resonox wrote: tjj wrote: Sanctuary wrote: Resonox wrote: TJJ could you please clarify for me what you mean by "albeit a reconstruction"...cheers Here's a 1910 photo of the Den http://www.flickr.com/photos/swindonlocal/5451164002/ Devil's Den was the remains of a long barrow - the mound destroyed and the stones fallen. It was restored in the early part of the 20th century by a well meaning antiquary who restored to how he thought it should look. I was puzzled as to why it was the only 'portal tomb' in Wiltshire until reading the superb little book by Peter Fowler and Ian Blackwell An English Countryside Restored - The Land of Lettice Sweetapple (found in my local Tourist Information Centre and still one of the most useful reference books on the Fyfield/Overton area there is). I just wondered if by reconstruction you meant it was "recreated" using non-original stones and did climbers over the ages cause the original knocking down. I would've thought that the renovators would've noticed rock-art especially if it is such a rarity in the area. BTW you should've voiced your opinion at the "disrespect" at the time even though you didn't feel it was harming the (reconstructed)stones, your associates might've had a little respect for your feelings and not investigated the stone quite as thoroughly in your presence. In 'defence' of June, although she certainly doesn't need me to stand up for her, it's not always easy to voice an opinion when in the company of people who you may consider your peers or you are fearful of if strangers. A 'time and a place' often decides these things and I've been in that position myself on more than one occasion. No-one needs to defend June...as nothing was said for her to defend (was there???maybe it reads that way not the intent and I still can't see it)...but I still feel the people she was with might've shown her a little respect because she has voiced many times of her "feelings" for stones and sites So I'll offer a defence for her...Why anyone would climb on rocks on the off-chance(and a highly successful off-chance at that) to look for markings which are relatively unknown anywhere else in the vicinity is disrespectful of her feelings...I am sure prior to visiting the Den there must have been some degree of conversation and discussion of how people view stone sites as they didn't all arrive there by happy coincidence unbeknownst to one and other.
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VBB 558 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 16:38
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Resonox wrote: I just wondered if by reconstruction you meant it was "recreated" using non-original stones and did climbers over the ages cause the original knocking down. I would've thought that the renovators would've noticed rock-art especially if it is such a rarity in the area. BTW you should've voiced your opinion at the "disrespect" at the time even though you didn't feel it was harming the (reconstructed)stones, your associates might've had a little respect for your feelings and not investigated the stone quite as thoroughly in your presence. It was feared that the setting of the north east upright was slumping. Arthur Passmore (A.D. Passmore) oversaw this concreting work in 1921-2, it cost £55 15s 1d (weird amount!) the cash was raised by subscription.
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Resonox 604 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 20:14
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VBB wrote: It was feared that the setting of the north east upright was slumping. Arthur Passmore (A.D. Passmore) oversaw this concreting work in 1921-2, it cost £55 15s 1d (weird amount!) the cash was raised by subscription. Cheers for the clarification..... A mighty sum in those days though...a bit like the old joke.."Who only paid a penny?"...."Everyone did!"
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The Eternal 924 posts |
Feb 19, 2012, 01:24
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postman wrote: At the risk of sounding like a clueless bufoon, can I ask why exactly it is frowned upon to climb on stones, is it a respect thing, or are we seriously saying that a barely 11 stone bloke will break or wear down a several tonne capstone or standing stone, when I first saw a dolmen I couldnt help climbing on to it, I dont anymore, but not because i'm scared of knocking it off but just because ive been there done that. Ive tried a bit of restoration on an upland cairn and nearly crushed a finger in the process, are we presuming that there is an army of cairn abusers there single mindedly destroying them, in the time it takes to rearrange a cairn you could simply walk off the hill/mountain, I for one dont understand the process of cairn rearranging. Climbing on rocks by many people results in the rock becoming polished. I know from first hand experience as someone who has climbed in the Lakes. The popular rock climbs become polished, which shows as discolouration on the foot and hand holds. Also, with more fragile rock, and where it has cracks, there is a possibility of rock breaking off. As for cairns, they don't become shelters overnight. Someone my rearrange a few rocks to provide a brief, scant bit of shelter whilst they put something warmer on. This is then seen by the next person, who adds to the wall structure, and so on, until a considerable shelter results over time. Luckily, these are built out of scattered rocks lying nearby, but, where there is an ancient cairn in an exposed position there will be an inevitable shelter excavated. There is no way someone who has no archaeological interest would know it was an ancient cairn. Cheers, TE.
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The Eternal 924 posts |
Feb 19, 2012, 01:39
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Unfortunately, climbing on ancient stones has taken on an even worse twist. Some prat has decided to dry-tool on Copt Howe. This is the site of the rock-art on the boulders in Great Langdale. Dry-tooling involves climbing ice-free rocks with ice-axes and crampons. Apparently, the rocks have been damaged, but not the rock-art - yet. There's been a bit of an argumentative "debate" on the UK Climbing website, for which I've added the link below:- http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=494113
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