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Banafrit
3 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 10, 2012, 11:51
There are public notices surrounding Silbury Hill requesting the public ‘not to climb the monument’, but these are constantly ignored, as very often there are people on top of the mound. I don’t know that answer, other than to restrict access to the stones and nobody wants that I’m sure.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4684 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 10, 2012, 13:33
Banafrit wrote:
There are public notices surrounding Silbury Hill requesting the public ‘not to climb the monument’, but these are constantly ignored, as very often there are people on top of the mound. I don’t know that answer, other than to restrict access to the stones and nobody wants that I’m sure.


I think it bugs a great many people that whilst the favoured few ARE allowed to climb the hill others are not. It doesn't set a good example.
jonnyj
28 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 17, 2012, 02:44
tjj wrote:


More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it.


I think i know who you're referring to tjj, didn't they discover what is probably only the second example of rock art in Wiltshire in doing so?,
two very probable cup marks previously unrecorded. :)
VBB
558 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 17, 2012, 08:35
tjj wrote:
TheStandingStone wrote:
I see this sometimes in Ireland too (on the rare occasion I actually meet people when out and about). Portal tombs generally fall victim to this as they are easy to climb on. Browne's Hill dolmen in Carlow always has tourists climbing all over it and generally about 3 coke cans and few crisp packets in the chamber. Worth than that is when people "worship" at the sites and leave candle wax and things all over the stones...however, that's generally rare in Ireland I find.

Ironically, although I urge people to never climb or interfere with the stones I found a picture of a teenage me stood on the skeletal remains of a passage tomb...I hang my head in shame haha...


I think some us have climbed or sat on long barrows and tombs without actually thinking we were doing any harm. I have a photo of me sitting by the entrance of Stony Littleton which was taken quite recently. More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it.


It certainly is about respect.

There are mixed messages about reacting to monuments. A protester is jailed for painting a green mohican on a statue of Churchill, a famous guitarist's son is jailed after swinging from the Cenotaph, yet BBC Countryfile pull a stunt like putting a big hardboard poppy on the Fovant badges for a day's filming!

Our time is beset with metal theft from memorials and public art, yet is the background to this not just theft ridden hard times but such as TV and charity stunts, protests, vandalism, and for that matter Disneyfying in relation to monuments?

The same goes for clambering over stone arrangements (even those 'restored' in concrete in the 20th century like the Devil's Den) and climbing Silbury in the knowledge that it encourages others to do so and that footfall is damaging the archaeology. We don't know what is acceptable and what is not so we just do as we like.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4684 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 17, 2012, 09:09
VBB wrote:
tjj wrote:
TheStandingStone wrote:
I see this sometimes in Ireland too (on the rare occasion I actually meet people when out and about). Portal tombs generally fall victim to this as they are easy to climb on. Browne's Hill dolmen in Carlow always has tourists climbing all over it and generally about 3 coke cans and few crisp packets in the chamber. Worth than that is when people "worship" at the sites and leave candle wax and things all over the stones...however, that's generally rare in Ireland I find.

Ironically, although I urge people to never climb or interfere with the stones I found a picture of a teenage me stood on the skeletal remains of a passage tomb...I hang my head in shame haha...


I think some us have climbed or sat on long barrows and tombs without actually thinking we were doing any harm. I have a photo of me sitting by the entrance of Stony Littleton which was taken quite recently. More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it.


It certainly is about respect.

There are mixed messages about reacting to monuments. A protester is jailed for painting a green mohican on a statue of Churchill, a famous guitarist's son is jailed after swinging from the Cenotaph, yet BBC Countryfile pull a stunt like putting a big hardboard poppy on the Fovant badges for a day's filming!

Our time is beset with metal theft from memorials and public art, yet is the background to this not just theft ridden hard times but such as TV and charity stunts, protests, vandalism, and for that matter Disneyfying in relation to monuments?

The same goes for clambering over stone arrangements (even those 'restored' in concrete in the 20th century like the Devil's Den) and climbing Silbury in the knowledge that it encourages others to do so and that footfall is damaging the archaeology. We don't know what is acceptable and what is not so we just do as we like.


While I agree with you in principal VBB I feel the 'respect' angle went out the window long ago for many. Just one example if I'm going to select one would be the WKLB. Who in authority cared much for respect when they broke into it and removed the human remains from their sacred resting place just leaving an empty tomb behind. If authority can do it why shouldn't Joe Public trample over it now if its very purpose has been violated in such a way beforehand? Education is needed as we've said many times before but some will never be educated because they will always find a way of justifying their actions. If 'paying' customers such as film makers can do it why shouldn't they they will argue successfully.
nigelswift
8101 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 17, 2012, 11:47
VBB wrote:
tjj wrote:
TheStandingStone wrote:
I see this sometimes in Ireland too (on the rare occasion I actually meet people when out and about). Portal tombs generally fall victim to this as they are easy to climb on. Browne's Hill dolmen in Carlow always has tourists climbing all over it and generally about 3 coke cans and few crisp packets in the chamber. Worth than that is when people "worship" at the sites and leave candle wax and things all over the stones...however, that's generally rare in Ireland I find.

Ironically, although I urge people to never climb or interfere with the stones I found a picture of a teenage me stood on the skeletal remains of a passage tomb...I hang my head in shame haha...


I think some us have climbed or sat on long barrows and tombs without actually thinking we were doing any harm. I have a photo of me sitting by the entrance of Stony Littleton which was taken quite recently. More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it.


It certainly is about respect.

There are mixed messages about reacting to monuments. A protester is jailed for painting a green mohican on a statue of Churchill, a famous guitarist's son is jailed after swinging from the Cenotaph, yet BBC Countryfile pull a stunt like putting a big hardboard poppy on the Fovant badges for a day's filming!

Our time is beset with metal theft from memorials and public art, yet is the background to this not just theft ridden hard times but such as TV and charity stunts, protests, vandalism, and for that matter Disneyfying in relation to monuments?

The same goes for clambering over stone arrangements (even those 'restored' in concrete in the 20th century like the Devil's Den) and climbing Silbury in the knowledge that it encourages others to do so and that footfall is damaging the archaeology. We don't know what is acceptable and what is not so we just do as we like.


I don't like praising you VBB as you start punning but that 's a good summary in a lot of ways. We indeed don't know what's acceptable, hence the problem. Even we here don't agree so Joe Public has no chance.

It always strikes me we have no navel gazing about Keep off the Grass signs, people mostly keep off the grass not because the grass will/won't suffer but out of yes, RESPECT for other people or the institution that made the request.
So perhaps we should keep off the bleedin' stones, not because they'll be damaged, not because archaeologists have always treated sites well, not because you've got a wish to kick against authority, but because some people - most people - don't like it and you ought to respect their wishes. trouble is, standing on stones often goes with exhibitionism so asking people not to may actually increase their wish to do it.
tjj
tjj
3604 posts

Edited Feb 17, 2012, 18:35
Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 17, 2012, 19:32
jonnyj wrote:
tjj wrote:

More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it.



I think i know who you're referring to tjj, didn't they discover what is probably only the second example of rock art in Wiltshire in doing so?,
two very probable cup marks previously unrecorded. :)



Were they cup marks though, I'm no expert but I understood that rock art and sarsens don't generally go together. I've just had a look at a photograph Scubi took a while back looking down on the capstone and the markings look natural to me.
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/25/devils_den.html
I suppose the question is 'does the means justify the end'. In the great scheme of things no damage was done. It sounds like you might know me so you will also know I'm not the sort of person to start laying down the law to others - even if I don't agree with their actions. Had I thought damage was being done I am certain I would have spoken up - as I'm sure you would have done too.
jonnyj
28 posts

Edited Feb 18, 2012, 04:19
Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 18, 2012, 05:16
tjj wrote:
jonnyj wrote:
tjj wrote:

More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it.



I think i know who you're referring to tjj, didn't they discover what is probably only the second example of rock art in Wiltshire in doing so?,
two very probable cup marks previously unrecorded. :)



Were they cup marks though, I'm no expert but I understood that rock art and sarsens don't generally go together. I've just had a look at a photograph Scubi took a while back looking down on the capstone and the markings look natural to me.
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/25/devils_den.html
I suppose the question is 'does the means justify the end'. In the great scheme of things no damage was done. It sounds like you might know me so you will also know I'm not the sort of person to start laying down the law to others - even if I don't agree with their actions. Had I thought damage was being done I am certain I would have spoken up - as I'm sure you would have done too.



Diplomatic as always. :)

700m North-ish lays the cup marked stone tjj, formerly the only known (though disputed by some) example of rock art in hundreds of square miles, with experience you learn to search out any significant other local and obvious features to explore for further examples.
I'm sure you've seen none of said above people show anything but complete respect for the Avebury area stones on any other occasion, and indeed champion their preservation.


In general i agree with you, but also it depends why you're climbing on the stones, and who is.
I understand that day, from what i've read, you had with you what could be classed as the 3 foremost experts on rock art in their respective areas. ?

Inquisitive jovial sorts who's laugh in the face of conventionality. :)

x...peace...x
Resonox
604 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 18, 2012, 07:49
tjj wrote:

More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it.
TJJ could you please clarify for me what you mean by "albeit a reconstruction"...cheers
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4684 posts

Re: Climbing on Standing Stones
Feb 18, 2012, 08:20
Resonox wrote:
tjj wrote:

More disconcerting perhaps was when I was with some people who were visiting the Avebury area and two of them climbed on top of the Devil's Den dolmen (albeit a reconstruction) - I freely admit I didn't say anything to them but was taken aback when they did it. For me it is an issue of respect as its unlikely that standing on a sarsen stone would damage it.

TJJ could you please clarify for me what you mean by "albeit a reconstruction"...cheers


Here's a 1910 photo of the Den
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swindonlocal/5451164002/
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