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Rhiannon
5293 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 06:30
Sorry, I'm not sure what your argument is there, Gladman. It sounds along the lines of - The brave people of this country tramped across land that actually belonged to other richer people. That was Good, because the land is Ours and the land is Sacred. People from other countries flock to get in, because our country is naturally better than theirs. This was Bad, because the land is rightfully ours and we shouldn't let other people live here. By god, we fought the Nazis for it etc. The black youths who live in the cities (I'm not sure how many generations you have to live here before you're not an immigrant any more??) have a bad attitude and like being stupid. This is bad. But it's not about race though. They should assimilate and have the same attitudes and thoughts as the Good Indigenous people have (well, as I have). They should visit prehistoric sites in the countryside and it would do them good. The fact that they do not is further proof of their inappropriateness for living in this glorious land.

I might have misinterpreted you :)
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2519 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 10:22
Agreed Rhiannon, just listened to something on Radio Scotland about kids from Glasgow visiting the countryside. For some it was the first time they had seen a cow, pig etc etc. Many people who live in urban centres simply do not have the chance to see the countryside so they are hardly likely to visit ancient monuments. Any chance to educate people about the countryside should be taken, then they might just look after it properly.
Gwass
193 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 11:17
blossom wrote:
Gwass wrote:
Thanks June.

I agree whole heartedly. Unfortunately the politicians signed away any right to limit movement from within the EU. It's clear that our infrastructure isn't able to cope with the numbers here so everyone suffers. Also why allow hundreds of thousands of economic migrants when we have 3million unemployed? It's crazy they're just joining the dole queue straight away.

I know there are bigger problems than just our love of the countryside and particularly prehistory but it demonstartes how overpopulation affects so many things and aspects of life. I read that we need c100,000 new houses per year for the next 25 yrs (don't quote me on that) to cope with the numbers of people arriving. How that isn't going to have an impact on our countryside & therefore threaten ancient sites is beyond me.

We need brave people to tackle the situation propperly as it needs to be rather than small minded people stifling any debate with ideological & false cries of racism.


I don't want to get into a debate about whether someone is being rascist or not but do feel that there is a lot of myth surrounding economic migrants and would just like to correct an error you made.
These are the rules regarding economic migrants and "dole" as you called it.

What about entitlement to benefits?
Migrant Workers
The rules are complicated and can be different for different groups and nationalities. Foreign nationals are not entitled to benefits when they are seeking work, unless they have already worked here and are temporarily unemployed. Citizens from the A8 countries for example, become entitled to benefits and housing if they are self-employed here, or if they have a job and register with the Workers Registration Scheme. Once they have been working lawfully for a year they no longer have to register when changing jobs and they become eligible for benefits when temporarily out of work as well as when working.


Thanks for your comments Blossom. However I feel I have to pick up on this point. When you said "I don't want to get into a debate about whether someone is being rascist or not"

I have to say that's part of the problem. If you read my comments there clearly wasn't anything there that could possibly be construed as racism. So by refusing to denounce me being called a racist is slightly adding to the problem.

People should stand up and take sides in this instance I feel as racism is vile & disgusting. So being labelled a racist therefore is also vile & disgusting as it is suggesting that I am vile & disgusting.

The majority of immigration is from within the EU which is predominantly white so being white myself and questioning the value of that can hardly be called racist. I never made a distinction on race at all.

Re benefits, you may be right, but i do know that councils are legally obliged to house people hence the huge cost monetarily and to our countryside to build the thousands of extra homes a year which are needed.
Rhiannon
5293 posts

Edited Sep 06, 2011, 12:39
Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 11:38
ok I think you've got the wrong end of the stick, I was trying to be satirical and that :)

But I agree, children in cities often never get a chance to get out into the countryside. In fact, at an event I was helping at in Bristol, it was obvious some of them had never been to the parkland virtually within the city. And that is a real shame, and maybe schools could help with that given the money.

But poor children* living in crap housing in inner cities hasn't got a lot to do with relaxing planning laws and allowing money-grabbing amoral tories to run laughing to the bank while we watch our countryside disappear. The daily express etc would love you to get distracted by those awful Foreigners and benefit fraudsters and the fact your house might not (nonsensically) have gone up in price again this month. But do not be fooled. It is not those people who are doing us over, who are ripping apart things we've struggled to achieve in this country like the nhs and affordable education and trying to sell off the forests etc etc just to get a few more pennies into their own pockets - those things belong to all of us too you know.

* possibly of the 'minorities' that Gladman curiously puts in inverted commas as though really they're not a minority but are apparently taking over your country (again, I could be wrong). I wonder if anyone's seen this as it is quite amusing:
http://www.watchsouthparkonline.net/season-13/episode-14-pee/
Squid Tempest
Squid Tempest
8787 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 11:52
Gwass wrote:
We need brave people to tackle the situation propperly as it needs to be rather than small minded people stifling any debate with ideological & false cries of racism.


Sorry, I've got to take you to task here. On the other part of this thread I've apologised for calling you racist, that was wrong of me, and I'd like to take that back. However, I don't agree with your stance, and I do consider it to be a dangerous point of view, albeit one held by large sectors of the population. Sensible answer coming right up.

First, you seem to be under the impression that something called "an indigenous population" is being invaded by Europeans. This is a false premise. For hundreds (or even thousands) of years our population has been made up from people from various European countries, and many from further afield. There is nothing new here, and nothing wrong here. There should be no barriers between people in my opinion. Otherwise you perpetuate an "us and them" situation, which is inherently racist. Our country has always been, and hopefully always will be, multicultural and cosmopolitan. Population on our continent is mobile, and this needs to be accepted.

Secondly, as Sea Cat so eloquently pointed out, the main problem isn't immigration, it is population explosion. If you really want to limit numbers you need to promote birth control and smaller family size. Not enforce it, that is a dangerous and repressive path. But to make it available and free for those who need it, and to also educate young people not to start families when they are too young and ill-prepared to deal with the responsibilities.

Population explosion is the real nettle that needs to be grasped, not immigration. This is the problem that faces the resource-hungry West. The "growth" promoted by our wonderful leaders is not sustainable.

I can't help but think we should be having this discussion over on U-Know - TMA isn't really the place for these political topics. I hope the Eds won't take exception. I suppose it will help if we try to keep it polite (which I should have done earlier!).
Gwass
193 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 12:05
Squid Tempest wrote:
Gwass wrote:
We need brave people to tackle the situation propperly as it needs to be rather than small minded people stifling any debate with ideological & false cries of racism.


Sorry, I've got to take you to task here. On the other part of this thread I've apologised for calling you racist, that was wrong of me, and I'd like to take that back. However, I don't agree with your stance, and I do consider it to be a dangerous point of view, albeit one held by large sectors of the population. Sensible answer coming right up.

First, you seem to be under the impression that something called "an indigenous population" is being invaded by Europeans. This is a false premise. For hundreds (or even thousands) of years our population has been made up from people from various European countries, and many from further afield. There is nothing new here, and nothing wrong here. There should be no barriers between people in my opinion. Otherwise you perpetuate an "us and them" situation, which is inherently racist. Our country has always been, and hopefully always will be, multicultural and cosmopolitan. Population on our continent is mobile, and this needs to be accepted.

Secondly, as Sea Cat so eloquently pointed out, the main problem isn't immigration, it is population explosion. If you really want to limit numbers you need to promote birth control and smaller family size. Not enforce it, that is a dangerous and repressive path. But to make it available and free for those who need it, and to also educate young people not to start families when they are too young and ill-prepared to deal with the responsibilities.

Population explosion is the real nettle that needs to be grasped, not immigration. This is the problem that faces the resource-hungry West. The "growth" promoted by our wonderful leaders is not sustainable.

I can't help but think we should be having this discussion over on U-Know - TMA isn't really the place for these political topics. I hope the Eds won't take exception. I suppose it will help if we try to keep it polite (which I should have done earlier!).


I didn't see your apology earlier & while I doubt whether saying your views are in the minority is equal to being called a racist, I accept it. So thank you.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I feel your views are dangerous too, particularly that there should be no barriers between people as it leads to utter chaos in reality as you'd have 90% of the world all wanting to live in 10% of its space. Surely not a good idea? Also I've got to pick you up on

"Otherwise you perpetuate an "us and them" situation, which is inherently racist."

I feel this demonstartes how widely misused and misunderstood the term racist is, how can it be inherently racist if the "them & us" are both from the same race? It's a contradiction in terms. Also making logical distinctions between people living in one part of the world and another is also valid even if they are of different races aslong as it isn't derogatorily based upon race.

Also it was Sea Cat that was using the term indigenous & I actually questioned it so I don't think that one can be chalked against me.

However the statement that we've always been a multicultural country I have to disagree with there's no evidence for that. We were invaded but numbers were small and had little impact on most people, it tended to be the ruling elites that were replaced with only cultural changes on the vast majority of the population and that can be called mono cultural as the new culture was all conquering like the Roman customs being adopted by the Britons rather than a large influx of Romans & dual cultures existing.

Also re population expansion, I have to say that there is an acknowledged and accepted reason for this. It is fueled by large numbers of people arriving, how can net increases of c300,000 people every year for the last c14 years not have an impact on population expansion?

But mainly what I was referring to is the large families that settled recent arrivals themselves are having. Shall we say the birthrate of British families who've been here for 100yrs+ (to avoid indigenous), is very low indeed.

Our population explosion without considering new arrivals in that year is driven by the large families that fairly recent arrivals themselves are having. I honestly thought this was proven, accepted and understood by most people. This fact can directly be put down to immigration as well so saying it's population explosion and ignoring the ultimate cause of immigration is slightly misleading in a polite way.

:-)
The Sea Cat
The Sea Cat
3608 posts

Edited Sep 06, 2011, 12:25
Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 12:06
Squid Tempest wrote:


For hundreds (or even thousands) of years our population has been made up from people from various European countries, and many from further afield. There is nothing new here, and nothing wrong here. There should be no barriers between people in my opinion. Otherwise you perpetuate an "us and them" situation, which is inherently racist. Our country has always been, and hopefully always will be, multicultural and cosmopolitan. Population on our continent is mobile, and this needs to be accepted.



Absolutely. It is an organic and symbiotic process, hence our multi faceted and splendidly diverse culture and heritage.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2519 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 12:11
Cheers Rhiannon, I know, the radio was on at the same time as I read your post.
blossom
180 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 12:22
Gwass wrote:

Thanks for your comments Blossom. However I feel I have to pick up on this point. When you said "I don't want to get into a debate about whether someone is being rascist or not"

I have to say that's part of the problem. If you read my comments there clearly wasn't anything there that could possibly be construed as racism. So by refusing to denounce me being called a racist is slightly adding to the problem.

People should stand up and take sides in this instance I feel as racism is vile & disgusting. So being labelled a racist therefore is also vile & disgusting as it is suggesting that I am vile & disgusting.

The majority of immigration is from within the EU which is predominantly white so being white myself and questioning the value of that can hardly be called racist. I never made a distinction on race at all.

Re benefits, you may be right, but i do know that councils are legally obliged to house people hence the huge cost monetarily and to our countryside to build the thousands of extra homes a year which are needed.


I disagree. I didn't want to get into a debate about whether you or anyone else are rascist or not because I do not know you. I don't know your political or personal views on any subject apart from a few short words on this forum and so I am not qualified to comment.

I am however qualified to comment on whether economic migrants are eligable to "join the dole queue" straight away. And so felt I should let you know that they are not.
Gwass
193 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 06, 2011, 12:24
The Sea Cat wrote:
Squid Tempest wrote:


For hundreds (or even thousands) of years our population has been made up from people from various European countries, and many from further afield. There is nothing new here, and nothing wrong here. There should be no barriers between people in my opinion. Otherwise you perpetuate an "us and them" situation, which is inherently racist. Our country has always been, and hopefully always will be, multicultural and cosmopolitan. Population on our continent is mobile, and this needs to be accepted.



Absolutely. It is an organic and symbiotic process, hence our multi faceted and splendidly diverse culture and heritage.


I have to disagree. I remember reading a link on here about a year ago that research had proven that c85% of British people were directly related to the first settlers.

Isn't that "we're all immigrants anyway" a recent invention by the left to justify our mass immigration levels? I know a lot of people work in the public sector here and hence tory bashing is rife and these views go along with that. I know that working for local govt these pro immigration views are almost force fed to staff & that PC culture runs from top to bottom in such organisations, I talk from experience by the way.

Aren't these views just an example of that kind of conditioning if you like?

My understanding was also that historians incorrectly perpetuated the invasion theory untill recently due to ignorance and an obsession with the classical world being the only way to civilize us. I really thought that it was now accepted as being wrong that the Romans, Saxons, Viking & Normans all had much impact on us as a people apart from a cultural movement of ideas.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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