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tjj
tjj
3613 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 16:41
Gwass wrote:
It seems to me people are missing the major point here which is supply and demand.

The biggest threat to our countryside is the unprecedented levels of demand. You can blame the developers and the tories but without the demand there isn't an issue.

No one has mentioned the fact that a large proportion of this demand is extra housing for the hundreds of thousand s of extra people arriving here year on year. Sort out the immigration problem and you remove a large proportion of demand.

It's not rocket science, if hundreds of thousands of people are arriving every year extra homes are needed. Last year the population swelled by something like 300,000, that's the equivalent of the population of a city the size of Stoke on Trent from immigration alone.

Why this elephant in the room is ignored is beyond me, probably because of political correctness and people are afraid of raising perfectly reasonable concerns because they will be labelled a racist by far left idiots.

Solve the immigration problem & you remove the most substantial threat to our 'sacred land'. It's what the vast majority of the population want anyway & this is supposed to be a democracy.


I don't think you are racist Gwass, measured debate about over-population on these small islands needs to take place without fear of being labelled racist. I think a large part of the problem is the freedom of movement provision for EU members. As the European Union grows ever larger, English has become the second language most Europeans learn in school so the British Isles is where many (too many probably) people head for in search of employment. So it is not just housing that is under a strain but health services (maternity services are under a particular strain), education sevices, employment, even prisons. Its part of the big picture, and to be honest I think most people just feel too jaded and disempowered to tackle it.

Meanwhile we have to settle for protecting little bits a precious land that apart from the flora and fauna may have prehistoric or historic associations.
Gwass
193 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 17:26
tjj wrote:
Gwass wrote:
It seems to me people are missing the major point here which is supply and demand.

The biggest threat to our countryside is the unprecedented levels of demand. You can blame the developers and the tories but without the demand there isn't an issue.

No one has mentioned the fact that a large proportion of this demand is extra housing for the hundreds of thousand s of extra people arriving here year on year. Sort out the immigration problem and you remove a large proportion of demand.

It's not rocket science, if hundreds of thousands of people are arriving every year extra homes are needed. Last year the population swelled by something like 300,000, that's the equivalent of the population of a city the size of Stoke on Trent from immigration alone.

Why this elephant in the room is ignored is beyond me, probably because of political correctness and people are afraid of raising perfectly reasonable concerns because they will be labelled a racist by far left idiots.

Solve the immigration problem & you remove the most substantial threat to our 'sacred land'. It's what the vast majority of the population want anyway & this is supposed to be a democracy.


I don't think you are racist Gwass, measured debate about over-population on these small islands needs to take place without fear of being labelled racist. I think a large part of the problem is the freedom of movement provision for EU members. As the European Union grows ever larger, English has become the second language most Europeans learn in school so the British Isles is where many (too many probably) people head for in search of employment. So it is not just housing that is under a strain but health services (maternity services are under a particular strain), education sevices, employment, even prisons. Its part of the big picture, and to be honest I think most people just feel too jaded and disempowered to tackle it.

Meanwhile we have to settle for protecting little bits a precious land that apart from the flora and fauna may have prehistoric or historic associations.


Thanks June.

I agree whole heartedly. Unfortunately the politicians signed away any right to limit movement from within the EU. It's clear that our infrastructure isn't able to cope with the numbers here so everyone suffers. Also why allow hundreds of thousands of economic migrants when we have 3million unemployed? It's crazy they're just joining the dole queue straight away.

I know there are bigger problems than just our love of the countryside and particularly prehistory but it demonstartes how overpopulation affects so many things and aspects of life. I read that we need c100,000 new houses per year for the next 25 yrs (don't quote me on that) to cope with the numbers of people arriving. How that isn't going to have an impact on our countryside & therefore threaten ancient sites is beyond me.

We need brave people to tackle the situation propperly as it needs to be rather than small minded people stifling any debate with ideological & false cries of racism.
tjj
tjj
3613 posts

Edited Sep 05, 2011, 19:09
Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 18:07
The Sea Cat wrote:
Thanks. However, I work in Social Welfare, and I have to say it, unpopular or not with some, the numbers of people that come here, largely to work and do the jobs that most wont, their Welfare Benefit and Housing needs are minimal, and they are a convenient scapegoat for a far vaster problem ie. Greed. Bread and Circuses amongst a lot of our own 'indigenous'. Always moaning about a phantom untruth. I don't subscribe to any political stance, just my head and hopes.

:-)


I have the greatest respect for your point of view Sea Cat and agree that consumerism or greed has been a large part of the bigger picture. I don't know what you mean by 'bread and circuses'.

There doesn't seem to be any such thing as indigenous population any more but there are certainly great divides between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. Unfortunately the 'have nots' are growing larger and larger in number. By 'have not' I'm not talking about new cars and holidays abroad but the opportunity to be employed or live, as we all aspire to, in home that has a bit of space and bathroom you don't have to queue up to use.

I can't agree that the housing needs of EU residents who relocate to Britain (the word 'immigrant' is perhaps too loaded) are minimal. How can they be - they are the same as yours and mine. All it means is, as the housing market hits a downturn, investment buyers are making a killing - buying up older properties cheaply to let to people who are desparate for somewhere to live.
The Sea Cat
The Sea Cat
3608 posts

Edited Sep 05, 2011, 18:27
Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 18:23
Gwass wrote:
The Sea Cat wrote:
It's not immigration at all. That's complete nonsense. There's plenty of space for all. It's really about changing people's ie. the vast indigenous populations heads about consuming, sensible family sizes and all the rest. It could be done, but that's the exact opposite of what is desired by the System. Unhindered Population Growth = Spending = Economic Growth = More Filtered To The Top Few as the Countryside and any true Society is royally fucked as a means to achieve this.


Thanks for responding sensibly and whilst I agree that consumption habits need changing. Im my opinion the chances of that happening are zero, because of the reasons you stated. One thing that can be done, which the govt have promised to do and which the vast majority of the public want them to do is to reduce immigration levels.

I don't know how you can say immigration is nothing to do with it. Surely that's your political beliefs clouding the reality which is obvious to others. Surely it's the most relevant issue of all? More people = more houses needed = threat to our spaces where no houses currently exist.

It really boils down to that basic fact and denying that seems to be denying the obvious cause. The 'indigenous' population you refer to (what ever that is) aren't producing large families, I thought that was known by everyone c1.6 children per couple, not even replacement levels for those dying.

It is families from abroad who are migrating and have large families so that is another point chalked up against immigration. You didn't really think British people are having large families surely?


Thanks. However, I work in Social Welfare, and I have to say it, unpopular or not with some, the numbers of people that come here, largely to work and do the jobs that most wont, their Welfare Benefit and Housing needs are minimal, and they are a convenient scapegoat for a far vaster problem ie. Greed. Bread and Circuses amongst a lot of our own 'indigenous'. Always moaning about a phantom untruth. I don't subscribe to any political stance, just my head and hopes.

:-)
blossom
180 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 18:56
Gwass wrote:
Thanks June.

I agree whole heartedly. Unfortunately the politicians signed away any right to limit movement from within the EU. It's clear that our infrastructure isn't able to cope with the numbers here so everyone suffers. Also why allow hundreds of thousands of economic migrants when we have 3million unemployed? It's crazy they're just joining the dole queue straight away.

I know there are bigger problems than just our love of the countryside and particularly prehistory but it demonstartes how overpopulation affects so many things and aspects of life. I read that we need c100,000 new houses per year for the next 25 yrs (don't quote me on that) to cope with the numbers of people arriving. How that isn't going to have an impact on our countryside & therefore threaten ancient sites is beyond me.

We need brave people to tackle the situation propperly as it needs to be rather than small minded people stifling any debate with ideological & false cries of racism.


I don't want to get into a debate about whether someone is being rascist or not but do feel that there is a lot of myth surrounding economic migrants and would just like to correct an error you made.
These are the rules regarding economic migrants and "dole" as you called it.

What about entitlement to benefits?
Migrant Workers
The rules are complicated and can be different for different groups and nationalities. Foreign nationals are not entitled to benefits when they are seeking work, unless they have already worked here and are temporarily unemployed. Citizens from the A8 countries for example, become entitled to benefits and housing if they are self-employed here, or if they have a job and register with the Workers Registration Scheme. Once they have been working lawfully for a year they no longer have to register when changing jobs and they become eligible for benefits when temporarily out of work as well as when working.
tjj
tjj
3613 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 19:27
The Sea Cat wrote:
tjj wrote:
The Sea Cat wrote:
Thanks. However, I work in Social Welfare, and I have to say it, unpopular or not with some, the numbers of people that come here, largely to work and do the jobs that most wont, their Welfare Benefit and Housing needs are minimal, and they are a convenient scapegoat for a far vaster problem ie. Greed. Bread and Circuses amongst a lot of our own 'indigenous'. Always moaning about a phantom untruth. I don't subscribe to any political stance, just my head and hopes.

:-)


I have the greatest respect for your point of view Sea Cat and agree that consumerism or greed has been a large part of the bigger picture. I don't know what you mean by 'bread and circuses'.

There doesn't seem to be any such thing as indigenous population any more but there are certainly great divides between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. Unfortunately the 'have nots' are growing larger and larger in number. By 'have not' I'm not talking about new cars and holidays abroad but the opportunity to be employed or live, as we all aspire to, in home that has a bit of space and bathroom you don't have to queue up to use.

I can't agree that the housing needs of EU residents who relocate to Britain (the word 'immigrant' is perhaps too loaded) are minimal. How can they be - they are the same as yours and mine. All it means is, as the housing market hits a downturn, investment buyers are making a killing - buying up older properties cheaply to let to people who are desparate for somewhere to live.


Numbers. There's a real significant difference. Immigrants housing needs are far fewer than our relentless 'indigenous' ever expanding population. Fact.

:-)


Ok, point well made, I accept it.
The Sea Cat
The Sea Cat
3608 posts

Edited Sep 05, 2011, 19:31
Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 19:30
tjj wrote:
The Sea Cat wrote:
Thanks. However, I work in Social Welfare, and I have to say it, unpopular or not with some, the numbers of people that come here, largely to work and do the jobs that most wont, their Welfare Benefit and Housing needs are minimal, and they are a convenient scapegoat for a far vaster problem ie. Greed. Bread and Circuses amongst a lot of our own 'indigenous'. Always moaning about a phantom untruth. I don't subscribe to any political stance, just my head and hopes.

:-)


I have the greatest respect for your point of view Sea Cat and agree that consumerism or greed has been a large part of the bigger picture. I don't know what you mean by 'bread and circuses'.

There doesn't seem to be any such thing as indigenous population any more but there are certainly great divides between the 'haves' and 'have nots'. Unfortunately the 'have nots' are growing larger and larger in number. By 'have not' I'm not talking about new cars and holidays abroad but the opportunity to be employed or live, as we all aspire to, in home that has a bit of space and bathroom you don't have to queue up to use.

I can't agree that the housing needs of EU residents who relocate to Britain (the word 'immigrant' is perhaps too loaded) are minimal. How can they be - they are the same as yours and mine. All it means is, as the housing market hits a downturn, investment buyers are making a killing - buying up older properties cheaply to let to people who are desparate for somewhere to live.


Numbers. There's a real significant difference. Immigrants housing needs are far fewer than our relentless 'indigenous' ever expanding population. Fact.

:-)
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2519 posts

Re: Warning: it's far worse....
Sep 05, 2011, 21:27
Mind you there is hope, Scotland might be Tory free and their replacements, if it happens will be thrashed out of site at the ballot box.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14778353
Squid Tempest
Squid Tempest
8787 posts

Edited Sep 06, 2011, 09:03
Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 21:34
Gwass wrote:
Squid Tempest wrote:
Racist.

Signed,
A. Far Left-Idiot


I'm deeply offended you would brand me a racist without knowing anything about me.

You've demonstarted you're right about yourself but please explain why wanting to limit immigration and the problems it causes (housing crisis being only one) makes someone a racist? If you think that is racist then you must think the vast majority of the UK population are racist as the overwhelming majority want immigration cut.

Thankfully your minority views are just that, in the minority. Unfortunately they are shared by our politicians which is what's caused the problems in the first place.


Perhaps I should have put a ;-) at the end of my post, I wasn't being entirely serious. Still, as you have chosen to take it that way, and decided that my views are "minority" when you don't actually know what they are, I figure we're about equal on the insulting front.

Edit: On further consideration...
I don't agree with you by any stretch of the imagination, but nonetheless I shouldn't have just called you a racist, even in jest. Please accept my apologies - I don't want to kick off a big row. Besides, we should be discussing stones on this forum!
GLADMAN
933 posts

Re: Our Sacred Land
Sep 05, 2011, 22:43
Yeah, let's hear it for the ramblers... let's remember it was the Kinder 'trespasses' which escalated the whole issue of 'access' in the first place. Brave people. Inspiration to ignore - better, to tear down - every section of illegal barbed wire. And to question that which is morally incorrect.

From my perspective the 'immigration issue' has nothing to do with 'race' or 'racism'... but everything to do with a moral requirement to (at least try to) assimilate into the society you migrate into. Learn its history... good and bad... hell, prehistory, even! England in particular is seen as a 'soft touch' by anyone refused entry into other European countries and this has to change. Bliar and his worthless lot completely - and cynically - lost control and this is unforgivable. Perhaps this is retribution for the evils of Empire? Yeah, perhaps we are rightly guilty for what our forebearers did... although being fundamental to defeating the Nazi tyranny was possibly this nation's finest contribution to civilisation. But having experienced the nilhilistic, moronic (learning is taboo, being thick is cool) black culture of the inner city at first hand, and the effect it can have upon intelligent black and asian kids wanting to learn but not being able through 'peer pressure', the issue is not to do with colour of skin, but outlook. The fact is that... Callanish (an awesome Indian gentleman) and Boscawen-un (a rather funky black mohican dude) excepted... I've not seen any non-white faces at the c1000 prehistoric sites I've visited in these Isles. Why not? Is it because the 'minorities' within the UK do not have a Julian Cope to speak to them?
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