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Tidying up offerings
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cerrig
187 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 20, 2010, 22:15
Last summer,about this time, I went to Maen Llia in the Brecon Beacons. On approaching the stone I could see some whitish grains spread about it. I at first thought it was the remains of someone's barbecue discarded on the ground, which I didn't like at all, as I hate the sight of litter of any kind.
I walked around to the other side of the stone and there I saw the origin of the grains.
At the base of Maen Llia,a 12 feet tall monolith, was a heart shaped pebble, about the size of a tea plate. On the pebble was a message from a wife to her husband, telling of their love for the stone and for each other.
The whitish grains were this gents ashes. He had passed some time before and this was his wifes final tribute to him. It was quite a sobering and touching thing to come across.
This pebble stayed in it's spot mostly untouched for months, except for occasional gifts joining it, mostly flowers and even a religious pamphlet which survived for a surprisingly long time, given the rain and wind that is never far away here.
As I was studying Maen Llia and it's surroundings last summer, I kept an eye on the pebble, and I often saw people coming and going. They all noticed this pebble, and I never saw anyone show it anything but respect.
A couple of months after it showed up, I was there once more, and once again Maen Llia was surrounded by whitish grains. I went around the back of the stone and saw 2 pebbles now, side by side. The second pebble was for the gent's wife. It was put there by someone who must have been a great friend, possibly at the request of the wife, as it too had it's own dedication on it.
The 2 pebbles stayed there for a while, then one day they were gone. I don't know where they went,but I hope they were removed legitimately and respectfully.
Oddly, I grew quite fond of them and the way they had become a part of the stones history for a while. It was a bit of a shock when they dissapeared. But I was glad when they went in the end. I think their job had been done, and to stay any longer would have inevitably led to them becoming someones souvenirs, which was an end these epitaphs didn't deserve.
So in my opinion offerings are fine, I will leave flowers or more usually bird feed. But I don't think an offering should be around for too long, even when theres a story to go with it.
moss
moss
2897 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 21, 2010, 07:15
Its like stepping on sharp pieces of glass when you enter the debate on 'tat', how do we qualify it? who gets upset the most. If for instance you went into a pristine rainforest and deposited 'European tat' i.e. plastic, glass, barbie dolls etc it would look terrible and be environmentally destructive.
But I also came across a small 'remembering' (shrine perhaps) on a barrow up on the Ridgeway; a laminated photo, a few words and plastic flowers for goodness sake, all for a young lad who was most obviously loved and grieved over by his family. Respect stays the hand, but this problem of adorning trees with anything that comes to hand, plastic dolls, christmas decorations, ribbons etc has no meaning in the natural world to which the pagans aspire to. I would love it if someone would explain why decorating a tree has any religious significance, is it in the hope that it shows acknowledgment of the wonders of nature? a private wish for something to come good in ones life? A gift to a god/goddess? It is a typical human response of 'me-ism'...

Then we get the other side of the debate, another me-ism, which states that it is non-religious, that it finds offerings visually intrusive, it does'nt like druids dressing up,(though we live in a society perfectly happy to dress in any going fashion) to me that sometimes smacks of religious intolerance, religion after all is a belief system

Personally I think pagans have to stop and think about where they are going and perhaps invest in something less ephemeral then any passing tree, well or stone...
nigelswift
8112 posts

Edited May 21, 2010, 08:35
Sort it out for gawd's sake
May 21, 2010, 07:34
If you've got one monument and two (or many) groups using it you have a shared monument.

If they disagree about how it should be used (leave stuff/remove stuff) you have a conflict with no chance either side can win.

So, you need a compromise solution. If EHand NT weren't so wimpish and anxious to suck up to the spiritual groups in preference to everyone else they'd have put up notices saying what is and isn't acceptable at places which THEY are responsible for.

Don't hurt the stones. Don't take tealights and candles anywhere near them (duh!) and don't leave the following tat: (list).
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 21, 2010, 07:49
cerrig wrote:
Last summer,about this time, I went to Maen Llia in the Brecon Beacons. On approaching the stone I could see some whitish grains spread about it. I at first thought it was the remains of someone's barbecue discarded on the ground, which I didn't like at all, as I hate the sight of litter of any kind.
I walked around to the other side of the stone and there I saw the origin of the grains.
At the base of Maen Llia,a 12 feet tall monolith, was a heart shaped pebble, about the size of a tea plate. On the pebble was a message from a wife to her husband, telling of their love for the stone and for each other.
The whitish grains were this gents ashes. He had passed some time before and this was his wifes final tribute to him. It was quite a sobering and touching thing to come across.
This pebble stayed in it's spot mostly untouched for months, except for occasional gifts joining it, mostly flowers and even a religious pamphlet which survived for a surprisingly long time, given the rain and wind that is never far away here.
As I was studying Maen Llia and it's surroundings last summer, I kept an eye on the pebble, and I often saw people coming and going. They all noticed this pebble, and I never saw anyone show it anything but respect.
A couple of months after it showed up, I was there once more, and once again Maen Llia was surrounded by whitish grains. I went around the back of the stone and saw 2 pebbles now, side by side. The second pebble was for the gent's wife. It was put there by someone who must have been a great friend, possibly at the request of the wife, as it too had it's own dedication on it.
The 2 pebbles stayed there for a while, then one day they were gone. I don't know where they went,but I hope they were removed legitimately and respectfully.
Oddly, I grew quite fond of them and the way they had become a part of the stones history for a while. It was a bit of a shock when they dissapeared. But I was glad when they went in the end. I think their job had been done, and to stay any longer would have inevitably led to them becoming someones souvenirs, which was an end these epitaphs didn't deserve.
So in my opinion offerings are fine, I will leave flowers or more usually bird feed. But I don't think an offering should be around for too long, even when theres a story to go with it.


Cerrig, I think everyone here is in agreement on this subject so there is no need to add anything further. I just wanted to comment on your post - which I found quite moving. I have been spending some time with a friend who recently lost their beloved life partner ... grief is sometimes tangible and the only way to help is to listen. I went with my friend and stayed in the shadow of a tree while they gently laid bluebells from their garden on the loved one's grave, an action no so very far removed from the one in your story; one of love and loss - beautifully told. Thanks for telling it.
Creyr
Creyr
114 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 21, 2010, 08:37
Thankyou all for your thoughts and responses.

I don't want to lose the point of the thread here though.

In this case the leaving of offerings resulted in a tree being chopped down.

So, I hope we can all have the foresight and breadth of vision to take into account other people's perspectives and aim for the best possible outcome.

When we do certain things on other people's private land they might not like it and may act accordingly.

This is why I suggest that people who are into making offerings do it in a way that vanishes into thin air.

Making an offering can be an awesome thing. Ive been very moved by seeing people bear their soul in prayer. It seems to me that the most beautiful offerings are those that reveal everything and leave no trace.
Mustard
1043 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 21, 2010, 08:41
Creyr wrote:

In this case the leaving of offerings resulted in a tree being chopped down.

Whatever one's view on "offerings", the above statement is disingenuous. It was a farmer's arrogance and ignorance that led to a tree being chopped down.
Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 21, 2010, 09:44
It seems to me that the most beautiful offerings are those that reveal everything and leave no trace.



Absolutely.

And until we all agree on that it might, perhaps, be best to see sites (within our own cultural tradition*) as being 'ours' only while we are there. In other words, apart from having a duty to be respectful to others who may be visiting a site at the same time as ourselves, we shouldn't deposit anything there that might offend those who follow (or anything that might damage the site) and we shouldn't take any material features (however small) away from a site when we leave.

* The feature here may be of interest as it tries to look at both sides of the argument from the perspective of two different cultures - http://heritageaction.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/votive-offerings-and-dondo-yaki/
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 21, 2010, 10:43
Creyr wrote:
A friend asked me to go with a bin bag to Long Meg to tidy up all the ritual offering detritus. He had passed by there and said it was really excessive but he didnt have anything to put the rubbish in. He said the thorn tree was particularly badly adorned. So I went up there today - just48 hours after he had been there - armed with bin bag and a knife to cut loose the stuff in the trees.

Unfortunately the farmer had beaten me to and and has tidied up the thorn tree once and for all (he has cut it down and left a wee stump).

I know Im preaching to the converted here, but please, if you do know any leaver of offerings types, tell them this cautionary tale.
The farmer is in his rights to cut the tree down and I sympathise with his point of view. Im not happy tho' as i like trees alot more than i like the kind of people who leave (well intentioned, spiritually imbued) tat tied in them.

I still managed to collect a half bin bag of strange plasticy fairy tiara type things and a pottery cow with crop circle markings on it (!). Also retreived a camping gas cylinder from a rabbit hole under a stone.Hmmmm....

Please encourage all your new ager friends to leave offerings that disappear into thin air immediately ( a song or a prayer perhaps...)

Thankyou
Rant over

Clairex


Good post Clairex and one that we should all support. Once an 'offering' has been made then there is nothing to be gained in my opinion by leaving it there once the 'service' has been completed if by doing so we are storing up trouble for ourselves. We are priviliged on the whole to be able to move freely amongst the stones of the majority of our sites and we cannot afford to lose that 'right' because of what most people perceive as rubbish. Guilt-tripping someone who doesn't see things as you do doesn't solve anything but being able to return to places such as Long Meg and my particular favourite, the Swallowhead Springs at Avebury, is a pleasure that I don't wish to lose by creating unwanted dumping grounds.
Chris Collyer
849 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 21, 2010, 10:57
thesweetcheat wrote:
Perhaps one of the ewes is sporting them...

:-)


I think you could be right . . .

http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/images/pd345/345360PD.jpg
tomwatts
376 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
May 21, 2010, 11:15
Alfrede................So you'd leave the old settee recently left at "The Bullring"?
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