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riverman
riverman
841 posts

Re: Owen Who?
Jul 13, 2016, 21:00
Rhiannon wrote:
Sanctuary would be proud of me. This is just absurd
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/13/owen-smith-to-offer-referendum-on-brexit-deal-if-elected-labour-leader
What on earth is he on about? We'll be out by then (if we're really leaving). There'll be no going back. He can't offer a referendum. He's an idiot. AN IDIOT.

how much more of this

I'm going to have to stop listening / watching all this and think about fairies and beetles and stuff instead.


I think it's a referendum on the terms of the Brexit deal not Brexit. The Greens have already proposed a similar idea as part of their progressive alliance proposals. They accept that the public have voted for Brexit but there was no discussion of what that actually meant in terms of any policy etc. So the electorate should be consulted. But I've no idea how that would work in a referendum context (general election maybe) as I can't imagine the EU giving us a range of options to vote on! In theory though there is the potential for a progressive Brexit and er... a not so progressive Brexit. So the electorate should have a say in the debate.
I'm in no way endorsing Owen Smith here by the way - I've no idea who he is.
Rhiannon
5261 posts

Re: Owen Who?
Jul 13, 2016, 22:16
Imagine the voting paper

choice 1: no bloody foreigners. but I'll still want cheap foreign holidays.
choice 2: can we have serious discussions re amount to be paid for access to trade
choice 3: I'd like europeans in Britain already to stay here please
choice 4: could we have special dispensation for scientific research projects
... choice 1001: etc etc

the mind boggles.

What will tomorrow bring, I can hardly wait.

Must go to bed
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Jul 14, 2016, 08:22
Re: Owen Who?
Jul 14, 2016, 06:56
riverman wrote:
I'm in no way endorsing Owen Smith here by the way - I've no idea who he is.


Neither does he it seems! Talks one minute like a dove expressing much in common with Corbyn (which I believe is a massive deception) the next minute he is being a dick (i.e. caught off guard and being real). When will these folks learn that nothing in the media is discreet any more?
Rhiannon
5261 posts

Edited Jul 14, 2016, 08:31
Michael Foster
Jul 14, 2016, 08:28
I must stop listening to the Today programme, it's not good for me. Trouble is my car radio is knackered and I can only get long wave radio4 or 'smooth'. I can't really turn it off because it keeps me awake with the bursts of adrenaline-filled fury.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36791782
So now this Michael Foster ('I've donated £400k don't you know') wants to contest the NECs decision.

oh please. just shut up. this is getting so absurd. Why would you even bother if you were confident that JC was so terrible and would never win. And how obvious is it that he's been put up to this by the cowardly turncoats who are not prepared to stick their own necks above the parapet.
nigelswift
7633 posts

Of COURSE we should be asked.
Jul 14, 2016, 09:56
Rhiannon wrote:
Imagine the voting paper

choice 1: no bloody foreigners. but I'll still want cheap foreign holidays.
choice 2: can we have serious discussions re amount to be paid for access to trade
choice 3: I'd like europeans in Britain already to stay here please
choice 4: could we have special dispensation for scientific research projects
... choice 1001: etc etc



No, not that, but this:

"Here's the exact Brexit we've negotiated since the day you voted for Brexit without knowing the terms and which are definitely nothing like the Outers told you they would be). Do you accept it Y/N"

seems entirely democratic and logical.
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Re: Michael Foster
Jul 14, 2016, 10:00
Rhiannon wrote:
I must stop listening to the Today programme, it's not good for me. Trouble is my car radio is knackered and I can only get long wave radio4 or 'smooth'. I can't really turn it off because it keeps me awake with the bursts of adrenaline-filled fury.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36791782
So now this Michael Foster ('I've donated £400k don't you know') wants to contest the NECs decision.

oh please. just shut up. this is getting so absurd. Why would you even bother if you were confident that JC was so terrible and would never win. And how obvious is it that he's been put up to this by the cowardly turncoats who are not prepared to stick their own necks above the parapet.


Today is close to being the only game in town for morning news. News coverage on breakfast tv and 5Live is infantile. LBC is so anti Corbyn that they might as well declare him "the man who hates Britain" and get on with it. Meanwhile Talk Sport is now in the hands of Murdoch so I can't even go there for a bit of light relief.
Rhiannon
5261 posts

Re: Of COURSE we should be asked.
Jul 14, 2016, 15:47
It would require analytical thought though, and weighing up like loads of stuff about you know politics and economics and that.

Which you can't enforce. So you'll still get people voting out because they essentially don't like foreigners.

I'm through with referenda. In retrospect I was through the last time when people voted against AV and for FPTP. If you want your voice heard that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You can call me a git but I reckon even with clear explanations it was too difficult for some people to understand. How perceptive is the average person... well half the people are less so than that.

let the egg throwing commence
nigelswift
7633 posts

Edited Jul 14, 2016, 16:19
Re: Of COURSE we should be asked.
Jul 14, 2016, 16:16
Rhiannon wrote:
let the egg throwing commence


You're saying a lot of people are underinformed? Wow how dare you.

My simple thesis though is that soon "thoughtful Brexiters" plus "unthoughtful" Brexiters may show up in polls as fewer than Remainers.

That would create an interesting issue. Should we go ahead knowing that most people don't want to? Is that democracy in action? Bear in mind the hurry up dialogue and the it's now settled and mustn't be undone dialogue mostly comes from Brexiters who fear exactly the scenario I suggest.

Referendums are not part of the British Constitution, nor is the principle of inviolable referendum decisions. General elections are.
Rhiannon
5261 posts

Re: Of COURSE we should be asked.
Jul 14, 2016, 16:26
Hmm I suppose you're right Nigel. (of course you're right :)

At least if we're given the opportunity to vote on the negotiated deal, people cannot really come back with the 'sore losers' or the 'but the people have spoken' reasons for not asking again. Because it's essentially a completely different question. There won't be any losing face if you want to vote the other way to how you did previously. They could bill it as something other than 'a second referendum' so people don't get all upset.

Anyway, didn't Ireland have a second stage of voting? it's not unheard of. It would be sensible for May to check that most people are with her as she jumps over the cliff.

Ok. Just one more.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
950 posts

Re: Michael Foster
Jul 14, 2016, 16:54
Yeah read about him earlier, it's people like him that put people off politics! He needs to learn that just because he donates money it doesn't give him any privileges as far as party rules go!

If he doesn't like the party he can stop donating money, which he's probably using as a tax dodge anyway!
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