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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Feb 26, 2010, 22:19
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handofdave wrote: Zappa considered himself a Jazz composer, but I don't know that the Jazz elite ever welcomed him in. I think that has something to do with his anger... He drips with that know-it-all arrogance that usually masks deep insecurity. He'd go after easy targets... stereotypes of the vapid American teen... as if somehow he'd been forced to suffer not just their presence, but their patronage too. It's easy to be aloof when one's slumming... harder to swim with the sort of fish that you imagine yourself to be. The snarky stuff where Zappa puts down his audience.... reminds me of Roger Waters to a degree. A very aloof, pseudo-intellectual air of self-importance surrounds both of these guys. I don't think Zappa had much time for "Jazz" per se. He most definitely saw himself as a "modern day composer" but never put a genre in front of his music. He had nasty things to say about jazz musicians -- as well as rock musicians and classical orchestra musicians, and most of all musician's unions. In general, he was a misanthropic asshole. Was there anyone he ever said nice things about? That's a big part of his personality and shtick. At the same time, I've always had the strong impression HE LOVED HIS FANS AND WAS GRATEFUL FOR THEIR SUPPORT. Yes, he did make fun of his audiences -- but I think the audiences were in on the joke and weren't feeling abused by it. I know I never have felt that way. It was always there from the beginning . . . I sincerely believe he's trying to provoke ya & make ya think for yourself a bit. "Take a day And walk around Watch the nazis Run your town Then go home And check yourself You think we're singing 'Bout someone else . . . but you're Plastic people!" The "them" he's making fun of is always "us" and that includes me, you & him too. |
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Feb 27, 2010, 11:39
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy a great deal of Zappa's music. I just weary a bit of the cynical edge in so much of it. And there's a certain amount of his material that wraps heavy layers of studio expertise around a core of.. nothing, really. Thematically, he was often as banal as the pop bands he mocked. I thought the early Mothers of Invention albums were generally pretty good. I still listen to 'em. |
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The Sea Cat 3608 posts |
Feb 27, 2010, 12:22
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handofdave wrote: Oh, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy a great deal of Zappa's music. I just weary a bit of the cynical edge in so much of it. And there's a certain amount of his material that wraps heavy layers of studio expertise around a core of.. nothing, really. Thematically, he was often as banal as the pop bands he mocked. I thought the early Mothers of Invention albums were generally pretty good. I still listen to 'em. Well I got Freak Out!, We're Only In It For The Money & Weasels Ripped My Flesh, and yes, pretty good is all I can say. The hypocritical smugness, the frat boy drivel and the avant gard poser I can do without, to be honest. All in all, slightly underwhelmed by Frank. |
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redfish365 710 posts |
Feb 27, 2010, 21:22
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For me and with the exception of Hot Rats I can't stand any of Zappa's records until Waka/Jawaka. From that album thru to the mid-80s though the man could do no wrong. After then he had some great stuff like Thing-Fish and Them or Us sprinkled in with more throwaway efforts. I think the bottom line though is whether or not you agree with his sort of worldview. If you generally agree that those he targets with scorn and derision deserve this fate (as I do) I think it makes his use of the rock and roll bully pulpit more tolerable.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 27, 2010, 21:36
Feb 27, 2010, 21:33
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The Sea Cat wrote: handofdave wrote: Oh, don't get me wrong, I still enjoy a great deal of Zappa's music. I just weary a bit of the cynical edge in so much of it. And there's a certain amount of his material that wraps heavy layers of studio expertise around a core of.. nothing, really. Thematically, he was often as banal as the pop bands he mocked. I thought the early Mothers of Invention albums were generally pretty good. I still listen to 'em. Well I got Freak Out!, We're Only In It For The Money & Weasels Ripped My Flesh, and yes, pretty good is all I can say. The hypocritical smugness, the frat boy drivel and the avant gard poser I can do without, to be honest. All in all, slightly underwhelmed by Frank. I can see where you are coming from. I felt the same way when (as I think Mooncat mentions elsewhere) the post "Lather" era Zappa and "The Wall" were the music of choice for a particular type of Johnny come lately rock fan. That said I do think there are some great pieces of music in amongst the drivel - gorgeous tunes and genius arranging. Not to mention the occasionally wonderful guitar playing. Overall though I think you are right and he is let down by what comes seeping out of a lot of the music he made - the smugness, the undisguised contempt for other people and his strange relationship with other people's sexual mores. I can't really see him as a challenger of people's belief systems and social conduct or whatever. The overwhelming sense I have is of a curtain twitcher who begrudges other people any naked fun they might be having. I get the impression of a man for whom human sexuality was something frightening and to be laughed off and belittled. Then again you might have to have been American in the 70s or 80s to get the "joke". None of this would matter if all that weirdness wasn't an integral part of the music but it is hard to separate the man from his art when he is constantly rubbing your nose in it. So to speak. |
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Feb 28, 2010, 17:59
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See, I don't think he's the one with the "strange relationship to sexual mores" -- if his sex-talk makes someone in the audience squirm, that says more about the sexual attitudes of the audience (and this is the effect he was aiming for.) He was pretty much the opposite of a prude! I'm a big defender of his right to be uniquely himself, warts and all. That said, I could name a dozen Zappa albums I think are worthless . . . some of which other folks around here would hold up as great. No one likes everything he did, and no two fans will agree on which records are the good and which the bad. SeaCat: my advice would be to check out some more instrumental albums next (I think most would at least agree Zappa's more interesting for the music than the "leerics" . . . ) "Uncle Meat" is my favorite in that department, though the CD reissue is somewhat besmirched by "penalty tracks" (bonus tracks you don't want.)
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Calighoulia 50 posts |
Mar 01, 2010, 20:44
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| I never read this entire thread but the record I never heard anyone mention is "Cruising With Ruben and The Jets. I love that record. However, it is Frank's ode to 1950's doo wop so it might not be everyone's cup of tea. Nor did I see any mention of "Absolutely Free" which I consider to be the best of the early stuff. But all "The Mothers of Invention" records are great in my opinion especially "Burnt Weeny Sandwich" and "Weasels Ripped My Flesh." I highly recommend "Uncle Meat," Waka/ Jaka," and "Grand Wazoo" as well. | |
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Edited Mar 02, 2010, 04:43
Mar 02, 2010, 04:37
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I like the energy on a lot of the Mothers albums. In fact, was just stompin' along to "Return of the Son of Monster Magnet" off of 'Freak Out' just yesterday, a totally mad and wonderful bit of orchestrated vocal cacophony with a heavy back beat. "Trouble Comin' Every Day" is another monster of a song w/message. I get a kick out of most of the Mothers stuff because it's irreverent and a bit out to lunch, and yet they're very much in control of where they're going. 'Weasels Ripped My Flesh' is a good one. Very psychedelic.... and when it breaks into that heavy blues 'Directly From My Heart To You' & Jean Luc Ponty's fiddle comes in.... ah! There's a certain resemblance on some levels between the Mothers and the Bongo Dog Doo-Dah band... the costumes, the deadpan humor, the subversive edge. I get the feeling sometimes with both bands that there is a really dark underbelly to the humor, tho. It's no secret on stuff like 'Uncle Meat'... a deliberate excursion into grotesquery. But even when either band was being just silly, there's a hint of menace in there. This is very much both bands playing the classic clown- the chaotic, reckless figure who obeys his own inner code. |
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Citizensmurf 1703 posts |
Mar 02, 2010, 05:42
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handofdave wrote: 'Weasels Ripped My Flesh' is a good one. Very psychedelic.... and when it breaks into that heavy blues 'Directly From My Heart To You' & Jean Luc Ponty's fiddle comes in.... ah! That's Don 'Sugarcane' Harris on electric violin, not Ponty. Ponty played on 'Hot Rats', but so did Harris, so sometimes they get confused. And yes, what a great segue and a killer song written by Little Richard. |
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Mar 02, 2010, 11:22
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Oops, thanks for the correction.
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