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The Clash. The Best band ever ?
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Dog 3000
Dog 3000
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Re: Punk vs. hardcore ramble . . .
Jul 30, 2008, 21:28
The story of "punk" is a long interesting one -- term first used to describe those 60's "nuggets" groups like Count 5, Standells, Seeds, etc. then later the less-progressive end of the US metal spectrum (Stooges & MC5 mainly.) Lester Bangs was regularly using the term by c. 1971; the original Nuggets LP itself came out in 1972 I believe (thus codifying a particular style of music that had been mostly seen as random disposable teenage junk previously.)

The "punk" concept and term are further codified in the mid-70's with the foundation of the fanzine called "Punk" (Legs MacNeil is the most famous alumnus), whose aesthetic was centered around The Dictators, New York Dolls, Iggy, Lou Reed and later the Ramones (very NYC-centric obviously -- there wasn't much that could be considered punk outside of New York and a few weirdos in Ohio and maybe California. The Detroit scene was all but dead by the mid-70's.) Just as important as the music they championed was the "punk lifestyle" -- which at that point had nothing to do with safety pins or mohawks (see the early Ramones and Dictators band pics: long hair, denim and leather, very working class.) I don't believe Punk magazine gave as much attention to the likes of Television or Richard Hell, cuz they were sorta "intellectual" which was against the credo.

AND ONLY THEN the "London 1977" thing happens (the UK style largely driven by Richard Hell & Ramones via Malcolm McLaren's trip to America to manage the NY Dolls) . . . the story continues with "post-punk" in the UK and "hardcore" in North America (which, yes, had a very specific meaning in the US context back in the 80's. Even bands like Sonic Youth and Dinosaur jr used to joke about how "hardcore" they were. Kind of like the indie-punk version of being "very metal.")

And finally "grunge" and platinum-level American sales for Nirvana and old catalog items like, yes, THE SEX PISTOLS (finally -- they were a complete dud here in the 70's ya know.) However Nirvana was definitely NOT "hardcore" -- I think the term/concept was dead by the 90's anyway. (Probably invented c. 1978-79 when Black Flag put out their first batch of 4 song / 6 minute EP's -- fast, short, aggressive songs that make the Ramones or Clash sound very old fashioned. Nirvana was both too metal and too pop to be hardcore. But heck, even Black Flag was often accused of giving up on hardcore and going "metal" in the Rollins years . . .)

Anyway, obviously the terms mean different things in different places and times . . . . I think the cool thing about "punk" (like "metal" before it) is that it is a style of music that grew out of a cross-Atlantic "conversation" between the US & UK (American blues inspires British groups leading up to Led Zeppelin, which in turn inspired legions of riffy American bands, but the hard rock scene gets fat and sappy with too much boogie so NWOBHM kick in, which inspires Metallica and all the "thrash" groups of the 80's, and so on and so on.

I suppose the larger history of RnR could be seen much the same way (Elvis to Beatles and back and forth and so on.)

Must be because of the language thing that this goes on between the two largest English-speaking countries (though even the Germans and Japanese etc. mostly sing rock in English.)
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Re: The Clash. The Best band ever ? (keith a)
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