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Citizensmurf
Citizensmurf
1703 posts

Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 04:17
Why does no one accuse Captain Beefheart of ripping off old blues artists? He blatantly redid old songs and put his own titles on them, changed a couple lyrics and gave himself the credit. After he was finished with the blues, he just ripped off the guys in his own band, even kicking out the real genius behind Trout Mask Replica (John French) before the album was released and not even putting a drum credit for him on the album.
zphage
zphage
3378 posts

Edited Nov 19, 2007, 16:26
Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 16:25
Correct, the dear Captain did steal and was not nice to his band. But... he was commercially irrelevant. Zep's worst selling album was 3 million copies. The Captain was not on enough people's radar to ask about his songs' provenances.

Aura surrounding Zep was huge "Beatlesesque". Fans figured they were geniuses pulling each album from the air with no musical antecedents, not that they were better and wider listeners than their 13-18yr old audience.

Actually it could be argued that as Zep appropriated less they became less interesting.

Fleetwood Mac "Oh Well" riff used for Black Dog

Yardbird's "Tinker Tailor Soldier Sailor"= Song Remains The Same

Little Richard's "Oh My Soul" via Richie Valen's "Oh My Head"= Boogie with Stu

Blind Willie Johnson "Nobody's Fault But Mine"
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 16:28
Beefheart's "voice" was obviously based on Chester Burnett aka Howlin' Wolf, and his tendency to go into a falsetto squeak at the end of a line comes from Little Richard.

But what specific blues TUNES did he "rip off"?

Who originated "Plastic Factory" (verse chords are the same as "Gloria" actually) or "Hair Pie" or "Floppy Boot Stomp" or . . . . (????)

Not saying it ain't so, just that I don't know of any examples.
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Edited Nov 19, 2007, 16:35
Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 16:34
I think you're stretching a few of those "equivalences" -- Black Dog, like Oh Well, has a chromatic blues riff in it. However the riffs have different notes! i.e., not "the same" just "similar"!

Might as well say that both of those songs are just "Day Tripper" by the Beatles, cuz that's also got a bluesy chromatic ascending riff in it.
zphage
zphage
3378 posts

Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 16:40
Some songs were triggers for Zep songs while others were wholesaledly taken.

Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones listened to alot of stuff, they knew good ideas when he heard them.
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Edited Nov 19, 2007, 18:52
Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 17:00
I'm listening to the new live Mutantes album, and during the guitar solo for "I Feel a Little Spaced Out" the chord progression is *exactly* the same as the one at the end of "Junior's Farm" by Macca & Wings (I'm pretty sure that's the one -- the bit where he yells "take me back!" as the band goes from uptempo verse to slower bridge section.)

Now, the Mutantes song came first (orig. title "Ando Meio Desligado" 1969 vs. 1974 for "Junior's Farm"), but this particular recording is new (live in London 2006).

So are Mutantes paying tribute to McCartney in concert, or did McCartney rip off Mutantes in the first place?

(PS - a trick question of course!)
zphage
zphage
3378 posts

Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 17:41
Dog buddy peace. This was just an interesting exercise, stuff Ive accumulated over the years as a player and a listener. I was hoping it would jog people's listening and maybe counter with some other examples and sources.
Moon Cat
9577 posts

Edited Nov 19, 2007, 17:53
Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 17:49
zphage wrote:

Aura surrounding Zep was huge "Beatlesesque". Fans figured they were geniuses pulling each album from the air with no musical antecedents, not that they were better and wider listeners than their 13-18yr old audience.

Actually it could be argued that as Zep appropriated less they became less interesting.

Fleetwood Mac "Oh Well" riff used for Black Dog




I think you slightly underestimate the musical knowledge of the Zep audience, whom you also seem to slightly patronise, and also the fact that Zep themselves regularly spoke of their influences - they still do in fact - in an effort to turn fans onto some great music.

The Fleetwood Mac thing is pretty off target by the way and I think says more about your apparent desire to accuse Zep of plagiarism than it does about their thievery. And while you seem to relish the notion of Zep simply nicking or rehashing ideas, you make very little of Jimmy Page's genuine innovations as a writer and producer, and of the whole bands' genuine talent, which I feel seems, possibly even to the most anti-zep person, somewhat disengenuous at best.

Still, whatever foats yer boat.
zphage
zphage
3378 posts

Edited Nov 19, 2007, 18:32
Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 18:30
I don't know many 13 year olds who knew who Tommy Johnson, Blind Willie Johnson, etc were. I am sure there are exceptions, but not the rule.

Generally with regards to blues tunes Zep didn't even change the key they outright took the songs, sometimes changed a title or, a turnaround or a couplet. These tunes were pretty obscure in the 60's, early 70's. Reissues were not readily available, the first reissue technically is 1966 Robert Johnson King Of the Delta Vol1: Vol2 followed in 1970.

So you really had to hunt these 78's down. John Fahey made his living hunting and selling these through 50-60's

British blues boom was primarily based on 50's Chicago electric blues(Chess, Cobra, etc), which made them more readily available, thus not as obscure.

Back in the day Bukka White, Blind Willie, John Estes were hard to find.
To this day originals are hard to find, big bucks.

Regarding Page's innovations I put him right up there with Hendrix and Townshend with realizing the record/lp was a sonic statement. They realize the record was a listening experience, different than the live experience. Thus they crafted albums that were not mere collections of singles/songs.

People forget at onetime Zep were an upstart band not given a lot of respect in the wake of Hendrix, Cream, MC5, Who, Jeff Beck, etc

Purple, Sabbath, Zep, Mountain, Cactus, Grand Funk were seen as bands simplifying rock. Calicifying it into power chords. I have friends, old heads, who grew up with Hendrix, Cream, Stones, Yardbirds, Who, etc that really don't care for Zep. They remember the change Zep heralded,, they were 18- 20 onward.

These charges have plagued Zep since the beginning like no other band. They have lost numerous lawsuits.

Allman Brothers, Cream, Stones, Fleetwood Mac, Yardbirds had no problem crediting sources why is Zep exempt? Cream's cover of "I am so Glad" paid for Skip James' funeral.
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: Zeppelin Song Sources
Nov 19, 2007, 18:41
I'm pretty sympathetic to your basic critique actually -- though personally the Stones appropriations offend me more than Zep's (or Clapton's for that matter.) (That's another topic!)

I think you can take the "sounds like" game too far though -- EVERY song with an ascending chromatic riff can be traced back to "Day Tripper" (including Zep's "Heartbreaker" even moreso than "Black Dog" -- and most especially Nazareth's "Hair of the Dog" which is almost note-for-note identical to "Day Tripper" only with different syncopation and a cowbell.)

But the "Day Tripper" riff was originally inspired by motown horn charts I believe, hence the logic of Otis Redding's "re-covering" of the song.

(I was gonna write up a little treatise on how "Day Tripper" begat "Paperback Writer" which begat "Last Train To Clarksville" which begat "Pleasant Valley Sunday" and thus finally culminates with Grand Funk's "Closer To Home"!! Obviously this R. Meltzer book I've been reading is effecting me -- even though I think "Aesthetics of Rock" is 99.99% bullshit!)

Everything is related to everything else. Zappa called it "The Big Note", but I think he got that idea from someone else (which is perfectly fitting, if you think about it!)
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