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How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
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tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Nov 24, 2017, 13:26
Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 13:26
grufty jim wrote:
Angry? Because the UK has to follow the rules?

The Guidelines for the European Capital of Culture are very clear. They are down in black and white, and Britain helped draft them. But you feel Britain merits an exemption?

Why exactly?

Every third year there is an ECOC from an EFTA/EEA country, a candidate country or a potential candidate to EU membership. It uses the same criteria with a few administrative differences (call and rules of procedure issued by the European Commission and designation by the European Commission).

From: (source)

So by the rules of the system, 2023 has been set aside for an EU member (which Britain has chosen to no longer be in 2023).

It could apply as a non-EU member for one of the "1 in 3" years; except those slots are only open to EFTA/EEA members, or those applying to be EU members. There is every chance, based on the current statements of your own government, that the UK will no longer fulfil any of those criteria in a couple of years.

But still you're angry about EU "dog in a manger" attitudes? I just don't get it. Why do you feel you can leave a community and then feel aggrieved when you no longer have access to the benefits of that community? Or feel angry when the community fails to make special exemptions to its own rules for your benefit?

Brexit has resulted in some odd attitudes in the UK.


Thanks for explaining all that jim. My initial response to the news was indeed an emotional rather than an informed one. Your post was helpful. I'm just one of the many British people who voted to remain in the EU and are now watching the unravelling process with something like bewilderment. A tangled web indeed.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 13:37
Ah, no worries.

It's just frustrating to see the amount of stuff in the media and on social media from the UK that basically equates the absolute, inescapable consequences of Brexit (consequences that were always explicit and obvious to anyone who took the time to research prior to the referendum -- those rules on the ECOC were published and signed in Spring 2014) and re-framing them as though they were some kind of vindictive behaviour by the EU towards the UK.

This is exactly what the UK chose to do. Nobody held a gun to their head. Nobody even wanted them to do it -- it's causing everyone else problems too!

So if the UK has voluntarily decided to relinquish eligibility for the ECOC, then it's no longer eligible for the ECOC. And it's odd when people in Britain get angry with the EU about that. I completely understand you getting angry with your own politicians, or the 52% of you who voted Leave.

That anger, I completely get.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2550 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 14:12
grufty jim wrote:
I read a funny little idea about some kind of "Federation of Independent Celtic States" which would comprise Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic as three independent EU member states, each with their own national parliament but with even tighter integration between the three than usual (collective electricity grid being the most obvious economic efficiency, but I'm sure there would be others).

And it's a nice thought, but in reality the sheer scale of the practical difficulties involved in Scottish independence alone... well, it makes any talk of future "federations" a bit moot.

Scottish independence -- from a logistical standpoint -- would have been relatively easy when the UK was a member of the EU. Now though, it's a logistical nightmare.

I'm still pro-Independence, but I think the Independence movement has a solid few years work on its hand to work out real answers to the questions of the border, future EU membership, currency and so on -- questions that either didn't necessarily even exist or which have gotten much more difficult with Brexit.

You don't want to find yourselves copying the madness of the tories and proposing a course of action you have no idea how to implement. It's just not good enough to make the decision first and then try and "muddle through". As we in Ireland have been trying to explain to the government in Westminster for 18 months -- vague platitudes and aspirational statements about "no return to the borders of the past" do not a policy make, and when your lack of policy threatens to damage your neighbours? That's just irresponsible and unacceptable.

The problem of how Scotland can leave the UK in a post-Brexit world is not insoluble. But it is a tough one. And right now, nobody has all the answers (or even most of them). That's the challenge facing the Scottish independence movement now.

Just as it's the challenge (albeit with plenty of local variation) in Northern Ireland, and in Ireland in general. Brexit has created a myriad serious problems. And the people who demanded Brexit are now acting like 3 year old children having a tantrum when we ask them how we might solve those problems. It shouldn't be up to the rest of us to work out how to enact a policy we never wanted... but the people who did want Brexit have abrogated all responsibility in actually implementing it.

They are either clueless or else bizarrely acting as though the very thing they demanded is now being foisted upon them against their will!

"We want nothing to do with your stinking institutions", they yell. And then cry foul and talk of "anti-British conspiracies" and "EU spite" when those institutions are relocated from London.

"We want nothing to do with any organisation that would make our cities eligible to be ECOC", they insist. And then claim the EU is acting maliciously when UK cities are no longer eligible to be ECOC.

It's like the UK has had a collective breakdown; and despite the massive number of "Remoaners", it's the brexiteers with their hands on the rudder right now and they are doing a lot of damage. So I'm afraid there's less and less sympathy and more and more apprehension, frustration and concern from Ireland and the rest of Europe.

And as for Corbyn? Don't even get me started!


Once again I agree with all of that. I also read that there had been talks with Iceland and Norway as well.

As for Irish its obvious the Brexit campaign forgot, deliberately?, all about the border and problems that might cause in keeping the peace.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2550 posts

Edited Nov 24, 2017, 14:28
Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 14:17
nigelswift wrote:

I think it has the potential; if Pro-Independence parties in Scotland and/or Republican parties in NI, play a blinder; to spark regional referenda within the next 5 years.


It all looks like it's ripe for a break up of UK but that particular horse left the stable the night of the referendum. All the stuff about "get over it", "the people have spoken" is never going to be heeded.


Indy2 is coming. The sooner the better, then we can begin to clear up this mess put on us, starting with Trident and getting back into the EU. (after our allies in Catalonia got no support from that body we do look on with suspicion.)
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 14:53
grufty jim wrote:
that anger, I completely get.


Isn't the whole of the Brexit dialogue about the consequential, inevitable chickens coming home to roost and Leave saying the chickens have been unfairly imposed by the EU?

Me, I'd prefer Scotland, NI and my road to join Holland. Job done.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2550 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 15:48
nigelswift wrote:
grufty jim wrote:
that anger, I completely get.


Isn't the whole of the Brexit dialogue about the consequential, inevitable chickens coming home to roost and Leave saying the chickens have been unfairly imposed by the EU?

Me, I'd prefer Scotland, NI and my road to join Holland. Job done.


Would it not be fair so say NI and Scotland having their vote ignored by Westminster?
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 18:16
Not sure your meaning but of course NI and Scotland shouldn't be ignored. But then, nor should a very large minority of English people simply because Cameron was too arrogant or careless to make such a vital vote be on the basis of just a simple majority. Assuming most Leavers will also be made poorer by Brexit it's fair to suggest everyone has been screwed. I'm the lucky generation, everyone younger isn't IMO.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 20:36
Where would we be without Newsthump to make us smile ....

http://newsthump.com/2017/11/24/uk-hoping-to-get-kicked-out-of-eurovision-next/
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2550 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 24, 2017, 20:39
nigelswift wrote:
Not sure your meaning but of course NI and Scotland shouldn't be ignored. But then, nor should a very large minority of English people simply because Cameron was too arrogant or careless to make such a vital vote be on the basis of just a simple majority. Assuming most Leavers will also be made poorer by Brexit it's fair to suggest everyone has been screwed. I'm the lucky generation, everyone younger isn't IMO.


I also agree with you concerning the English minority but Scotland is a nation and should be treated as such. Hopefully next election down south will vote in a party that represents sensible views i.e. Labour. In Scotland Labour are badly out of touch, a lot of people, including me, consider Labour, Tory and Liberal to be the same thing.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: How did you vote in the great 2016 Folly Daddy?
Nov 25, 2017, 14:07
I like this retweet by Prof Brian Cox ....

Brian Cox?Verified account @ProfBrianCox
40m40 minutes ago

Brian Cox Retweeted Andrea Sella

Brexit policy now being driven by a small number of special interest groups (I include the DUP) and around 30 or 40 fanatical MPs with little regard for the stability of the U.K. Negotiate a pause in article 50 process and call an election or form a government of national unity.
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